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PHChristy: Good evening. My name is Christie Keith, and my co-host tonight is Nancy Campbell RVT, chatting as PHValkyrie.

PHChristy: Before I begin, let me explain how this chat works. I'm going to open with a discussion of the basics of feeding a homemade diet to your pets, and then Nancy and I will take your questions.

PHCatByte: hi, valkyrie!

PHChristy: If at any point during the chat you have a question, please type a ? into the room. Your name will be added to the queue, and PH CatByte will call on you when it's your turn.

PHChristy: Please have your question typed and ready to send to the chat room when you're called on. Also, if the question is for one of us in particular, please mention that when you ask it.

PHChristy: Nancy Campbell RVT is a registered veterinary technician in Washington State, and keeps the Vet Techs blog at http://vettechs.blogspot.com. She has been feeding homemade diets to her dogs, cats, and ferrets for many years.

PHChristy: I've been feeding homemade diets to my dogs and cats for over 21 years, and have written about homemade pet diets for Bark Magazine, PetConnection.com, PetHobbyist.com, SFGate.com, the Veterinary Information Network, America Online, and a number of other magazines, newsletters, and websites.

PHChristy: We realize that many of our chat regulars have been feeding homemade diets for years, but this presentation is specifically intended to be for those who do not have that experience, and who are just learning about homemade diets.

PHChristy: I first learned about homemade diets for pets in 1986, when I read a book by Dr. Richard Pitcairn called Dr. Pitcairn's Complete Guide to Natural Health for Dogs and Cats. Dr. Pitcairn is a veterinarian and has a PhD in immunology as well.

PHChristy: I realized reading his book that, while humans are advised to eat a varied diet of fresh foods, we're also told to feed our pets nothing but a lifelong diet of processed foods.

PHChristy: The truth is, there is no reason to feed processed foods other than the fact that it's easier. Many people don't have the time, or the desire, to correctly prepare a homemade diet for their pets.

PHChristy: But it is possible (and not as hard as you might have been told!) to put together a balanced, nourishing, wholesome diet for your dogs and cats in your own kitchen, just as you do - or could do, if you had time - for yourself and your family.

If that's something you think you might be interested in, the first step is to find out more.

PHChristy: Two useful starter books are the Rodale Press classic, Dr. Pitcairn's Complete Guide to Natural Health for Dogs and Cats, now in its third edition, and Home-Prepared Dog and Cat Diets: The Healthful Alternative, by renowned veterinary gastroenterologist Donald Strombeck, DVM, Ph.D.

PHChristy: Both are loaded with recipes for homemade diets -- the Pitcairn book even includes a few simple recipes meant to be mixed with kibble. There are also good tips on adding fresh foods to commercial diets on the website at www.dogaware.com.

PHChristy: Most people who approach me to find out more about homemade diets want a recipe handed to them. I don't think that's a good idea, because there are many different ways to feed a dog or cat, and it's not my job to decide which is right for you.

PHChristy: There is no "one true way" to feed a dog or cat, so try different things and see what works best for your pets and your lifestyle.

PHChristy: Also, I recommend feeding your pets a variety of recipes, and in fact, even if you feed commercial foods, I recommend rotating through a number of different ones, and adding nutritious, fresh foods as well.

Dogdaze_nr: ?

PHChristy: Are there other ways to feed than the ones in those books? Absolutely.

PHChristy: Raw food, prey model, home cooking, breed-specific, vegetarian and more -- pretty much every ideology found in human nutritional circles has its canine and feline counterpart. Feel free to come back to this chat any other Thursday evening, and we can discuss those. Tonight is for the basics. :)

PHChristy: The basic idea I want to convey tonight is this: The human race and its assorted domesticated animals have managed to survive and reproduce for hundreds of thousands, even millions, of years, without the assistance of the modern food-manufacturing plant.

iamtonia_nr: ?

PHChristy: This isn't a license to feed pets a poorly constructed diet -- but rather a little reality check on the idea that you need finely calibrated laboratory equipment and a degree in nutrition to make your pet's dinner.

PHChristy: Aside from the willingness to do it, you really just need a few balanced recipes and the same measuring spoons and cups you'd use to make a cake from a mix.

PHChristy: Pet owners have been sold the idea that there's something inherently different about "people food" and "pet food."

PHChristy: There isn't. Food is food. Recipes are recipes. It doesn't need to be processed into pellets or put in cans or pouches to be "pet food."

PHChristy: Putting together a varied, nutritious pet diet in your own kitchen takes some awareness and some thought, but it's genuinely no more (or less) difficult than putting together a healthy, nutritious diet for yourself.

PHChristy: Okay, we'll open up to questions now. If you have a question, please type a ? and wait to be called on.

PHChristy: CatByte, who is first? ga

PHCatByte: dogdaze, you have a question?

Dogdaze_nr: Where do you find the basics for a grain free diet?

KC_nr: ?

PHChristy: Dogdaze, Dr. Strombeck has recipes for grain free diets in his book

PHChristy: Also, Dr. Pitcairn's office told me it's fine to use vegetables instead of grains in his recipes

PHChristy: I have also reduced the volume of veggies in Dr. P's recipes with no problems

PHChristy: dogs and cats have no dietary requirement for carbohydrate

rhodygolden_nr: ?

PHChristy: so reducing or eliminating that typically doesn't disrupt the balance of the diet in any way

PHChristy: let me just add to what I said... that if CALORIES are a concern, as with a pet who is fat or thin, then of course the calories from carbohydrate matter.

Dogdaze_nr: Thank you. I have another question if I may?

PHChristy: sure, ga

Dogdaze_nr: What is the story on dairy products? I see some things saying to avoid them and some saying feed your dog yogurt?

PHChristy: Dogdaze, there are those who think that dairy products are bad for pets. I've fed them for over 21 years.

PHChristy: It's a matter for you to decide

PHChristy: and based on how your pet does on them

PHChristy: Dogdaze, that's a question moving out of the basics, we can go to that next week if you'd like :)

PHChristy: ga

Dogdaze_nr: why would they be bad? don't our dogs start life on milk?

PHCatByte: iamtonia, you're next!

iamtonia_nr: Do you have a good suggestion as to where I might find breed specific information? I have 2 labs, one pup, one adult. I would like help finding information on recipes and ingredients targeted towards labs. My adult lab has a sensitive stomach, she gets loose stool and gas, and I would like info. to help feed her a diet that will keep her tummy feeling good

Charmaine_nr: ?

Dogdaze_nr: thank you!

PHChristy: iamtonia, I don't believe in "breed specific" recipes... although large dogs do have special needs while growing

iamtonia_nr: I see.

iamtonia_nr: one more?

PHChristy: For Labs, weight control is the most important thing, LOL

EvelynCiCi_nr: ?

iamtonia_nr: Is there a website where I might find a recipe to start with to try it out?

PHChristy: they are a prime breed for cutting out any excess calories, such as from carbs

PHChristy: iamtonia, for dogs, my top recommendation is www.dogaware.com, but I do strongly recommend reading at least one book

PHChristy: ga

PHCatByte: kc, your question?

PHValkyrie: When you're feeding a home made type diet, it's also easier to break it down so that you may find out what exactly is causing the loose stools and gas. You have the control, that's an important factor in my book.

PHChristy: great point, Valk!

iamtonia_nr: thank you

KC_nr: I feed science diet all natural, dry in addition 3 or 4 times a week provide meal mixed with such items as boiled chicken, cooked beef, eggs, any veggies like raw green beans, broc, carrots, brussel sprouts, apples, orange, also yogurt on top of dry a few times a week, milk in small amounts also daily fish oil capsule, are we doing ok

archie_nr: ?

Dogfather_nr: ?

PHChristy: KC, the additions to the diet sound fine to me, although I don't think you need much in the way of veggies with a kibble base

PHValkyrie: KC...how's your dog doing on the diet?

KC_nr: 12 lb Rat terrier and does great eats nearly anything and no problems with any loose stools

Kimi_nr: ?

KC_nr: should I stick more to proteins then? and what are your ideas on fruits?

Mali_nr: ?

PHChristy: KC, many dogs enjoy fruit, I think fruit is fine as a treat as long as the dog isn't fat

PHChristy: fresh, wholesome foods are good to give dogs as long as they aren't obese

KC_nr: why no veggies?

Dogdaze_nr: no raisins

PHChristy: but myself, I'd cut down or out the kibble before the fresh foods, LOL, if the pet is fat

fireladie: ?

KC_nr: he actually maintains his weight better now then when he was just on the kibble only

PHChristy: I am not saying "no veggies," but kibble is already high in carbohydrate

PHChristy: why add more?

PHChristy: I'd concentrate on protein and fat

PHChristy: but a little bit of fruit and veggie is good

PHChristy: antioxidants are good, although they are present in organ meats too

PHChristy: ga

KC_nr: what in the way of fat?

furfriend_nr: ?

PHChristy: fatty meats, eggs, full fat dairy products

PHChristy: ga

KC_nr: any thoughts on kefir?

PHChristy: Kefir is fine, I like all dairy products but cultured ones are best. Like kefir, yogurt, etc

KC_nr: Thanks very much for your responses

PHChristy: you're welcome!

PHChristy: ga

Silken_nr: ?

Mali_nr: ?

PHCatByte: charmaine, you're next!

Charmaine_nr: Can you give some basics dos and don'ts to get started? I will order the books -- but I was hoping for some general information to start.

PHChristy: Charmaine, cat or dog?

Jessica_nr: ?

Charmaine_nr: I have 2 cairns and a cat -- a very picky cat

PHChristy: For dogs, check out dogaware.com for hints on getting started. Also, join the K9Nutrition email list

PHChristy: for cats, no. Read the books first. Cats are tricky. Nancy, want to add to that?

PHValkyrie: Big do....relax. :-) My favorite.

PHChristy: LOL

PHValkyrie: For your picky cat...be prepared for it taking time.

PHChristy: Cats (and ferrets) can be hard to switch

PHValkyrie: Cats heavily imprint on size, shape and texture.

PHChristy: although I've been lucky all my life, my cats have always switched easily

PHChristy: but I've helped a lot of people switch their cats and I've seen some struggles

fawnice: ?

PHValkyrie: My best recommendation is when you're ready, come back and see us. I'll prop ya up when you're frustrated. :-)

PHChristy: LOL

PHChristy: ga

2pitties_nr: ?

Charmaine_nr: YES -- she is very imprinted on a brand that is now being made at Menu -- even though it is not recalled -- and I don't want to feed it to her -- but she won't eat anything else.

PHChristy: Charmaine, that's a common problem, I'm afraid

PHValkyrie: I understand completely.

westiewonder_nr: ?

PHChristy: Don't starve a cat to get her to eat... cats can get a condition called hepatic lipidosis

PHChristy: try hard to find a way to get her to eat the new food

PHValkyrie: Hmm...for a don't...I think a big one is don't get stuck on one method. Be open to trying.

PHChristy: In the book The New Natural Cat, Anitra Frazier has some good suggestions

PHChristy: some cats like the taste of soy sauce

PHChristy: the water from a can of tuna

PHChristy: butter

PHChristy: Parmesan cheese

PHChristy: it can be very challenging

PHChristy: but if there is a concern with the safety of the food they are eating, you need to make the effort

PHValkyrie: Oh yes, anything like that to help. Start small and celebrate those tiny victories.

PHChristy: even if it's just to switch to a different canned food

PHChristy: baby food

PHValkyrie: She may surprise you, too.

PHChristy: ga

PHCatByte: archie, you have a question?

archie_nr: Do cats have different dietary requirements than dogs? In other words, can I feed my dogs cat recipes? Some say cats need a more precisely controlled diet or that they are more "difficult" to feed and I don't understand why since they're all carnivores right? ga

Charmaine_nr: Thank you -- I've been trying to switch her -- but she's more stubborn than me. thanks for the advice.

PHChristy: You can feed most adult dogs a cat diet, but NOT vice versa

PHChristy: feline diets are usually fine for adult dogs

PHChristy: but canine diets might or might not be fine for cats

PHChristy: cats really do have MUCH more precise dietary requirements than dogs

PHChristy: dogs are more opportunistic

PHChristy: cats are obligate carnivores, dogs are scavengers as well as predators

PHChristy: even though both are carnivores

PHChristy: TRUE carnivores

confused_nr: ?

PHChristy: ga

PHCatByte: dogfather, your turn!

Dogfather_nr: Is it safe to feed raw ground beef? I've heard in the past that ground raw meat isn't as safe as whole raw meat, is this true? Also, do veggies need to be pureed rather than whole to get the best absorption?

archie_nr: so it;s not really that cats are trickier but more that dogs are more forgiving or eclectic?

PHChristy: We're not going to get into the raw issue tonight

PHChristy: but please feel free to come back any other Thursday, we normally discuss it all the time!

Dogfather_nr: Okay, will do

PHChristy: Dogs and cats hardly digest whole raw veggies at all

PHChristy: dogs sometimes enjoy them as treats anyway

PHChristy: but cooked or pulverized gives them more of a chance to be digested

PHChristy: I doubt pureeing them does much of anything

PHChristy: other than make the veggies unrecognizable in canine stool

PHChristy: you would actually have to break the cellular wall

PHChristy: of the molecules of the veggies

PHChristy: and I don't think my Cuisinart does that

PHChristy: then again, I'm not a big fan of veggies for dogs

Silken_nr: ?

PHChristy: and when I give them, I cook them and mash them up

Dogfather_nr: So are we talking cooked diets only tonight?

PHChristy: Dogfather, cooked or raw, the nutritional principles are basically the same

PHChristy: and I'd rather focus on that

PHChristy: for tonight

Dogfather_nr: okay, I'll follow along, thank you

PHChristy: sure!

PHChristy: ga

PHCatByte: kimi, you have a question?

Kimi_nr: thank you. I have a houseful of cats who eat just about anything! And if some don't, others will convince them to try! What is a good basic cooked diet to start them on. They are all on high quality canned and kibble right now.

PHChristy: Kimi, for cats, the recipes in either book are fine. I prefer the grain-free recipes for cats.

PHChristy: ga

Kimi_nr: would you consider rice not good for them?

Kimi_nr: brown rice

PHChristy: Kimi, I consider all grains to be bad for cats

Kimi_nr: no veggies either?

PHChristy: many feline specialists... vets... agree with me on this.

Kimi_nr: I'm not doubting you!

PHChristy: cats have no dietary requirement for carbohydrate

Kimi_nr: so just meat?

PHChristy: so, to me, why add it?

PHChristy: well, not "just meat"

PHChristy: a balanced diet of meats, fats, and supplements - cats need a carefully designed diet, much more so than dogs

fireladie: ?

Therese: ?

Kimi_nr: so rather than experiment, go with a diet in the book?

PHChristy: for cats, yes, that's my recommendation

Kimi_nr: thank you!!

PHChristy: because of cats' specific requirements

PHChristy: dogs are easier

PHChristy: although cats phrase that differently

PHChristy: ga

PHCatByte: mali, you have a question?

Kimi_nr: MOL!!

PHChristy: ;)

Mali_nr: Thank you. What 'cuts' of chicken are best for a base? backs, leg quarters, necks ......? what has best meat to bone ratio? (I have 70lb dogs)

PHChristy: Mali, when talking about prey model diets

PHChristy: the point of them is to reproduce a prey animal

PHChristy: prey animals typically eaten by wolves have around 9-13 percent total bone mass

PHChristy: therefore, that's what you would want to aim for

PHChristy: most "BARF" type diets are being fed at bone levels far, far too high

Rouen: ?

archie_nr: ?

PHChristy: also, for reasons of ease of obtaining chicken, they feed what I consider to be WAY too much chicken

PHChristy: for more on that, I'd ask you to come back any other Thursday, when I'd be happy to get more in depth on prey diets and their issues

PHChristy: ga

Mali_nr: I have used chicken backs. Should I add more meat to their meals?

PHValkyrie: Absolutely, Mali. Backs are mostly bone.

Mali_nr: Thanks, I'll be back another week.

PHValkyrie: ga

PHChristy: :)

PHChristy: ga

PHCatByte: fireladie, your turn!

confused_nr: ?

fireladie: with 4 dogs of different nutritional needs, I think I want to try homemade foods first on my cat :P (since there is only one lol) since she seems be one that would like them... any resources for cats, or anything I can add to her kibble now

PHChristy: I really tell people to play it safe with cats

PHChristy: however, a whole sardine... the tinned kind, with bones, can be a great addition now and then to a feline diet

PHChristy: the bones are so soft from the canning and cooking the cats can eat them right up

PHChristy: and the balance isn't far off

fireladie: I feed her pinky mice as a treat every now and then

fireladie: is that okay?

PHChristy: fireladie, nutritionally, that would depend on what the pinkies were fed

PHChristy: but yes, it's probably fine

PHChristy: nutritionally

PHChristy: ga

PHCatByte: furfriend, your turn!

furfriend_nr: I've heard a lot about adding fish oil. Why? Is this part of a basic diet?

PHChristy: furfriend, great question!

PHChristy: modern meats are typically too high in Omega 6 fatty acids

PHChristy: this is because the food animals are raised on a diet of grains

PHChristy: instead of grass and pasture

PHChristy: that changes the fatty acid profile of their meat

PHChristy: this is true also of eggs from grain-fed chickens

PHChristy: and the milk of grain-fed cows

PHChristy: it's a widespread problem

PHChristy: for humans as well

PHChristy: one suggestion is to supplement the diet with Omega 3 fatty acids

PHChristy: acids

PHChristy: in this case, fish body oils

PHChristy: to try to restore a more correct balance

PHChristy: also

PHChristy: fish oils have a general anti-inflammatory effect on the body, which is helpful with arthritis and some other inflammatory conditions

PHChristy: so unless you are feeding true grass fed meat and eggs and dairy, I would suggest supplementing with fish oil

PHChristy: ga

furfriend_nr: How do I judge how much fish oil to give?

PHCatByte: silken, you have a question?

Silken_nr: I have the book "Its For The Animals" and try to follow that diet, is it ok? Have a picky 'silken windhound' that won't eat much. When he does eat he likes BilJac dry. Tried chicken necks and lamb necks and he will eat them once in a while; but not always. Any suggestions?

PHChristy: furfriend, I give 1000 mgs per 20 lbs of body weight to my dogs

PHChristy: Silken, I don't know that book.

PHChristy: what is the diet?

Silken_nr: cooked meats/vegs/grains plus supplements

PHChristy: Silken, well, I'm not a fan of grains in canine and feline diets, although Pitcairn recommends them and, for dogs, so does Strombeck, and I'm recommending their books, LOL

PHChristy: I wouldn't want to comment on a diet I have never looked at

Silken_nr: ok, understand that

PHChristy: but typically, when kibble is being fed as a base, there is no reason to add grains and veggies to the fresh foods being added

PHChristy: since kibble is already quite high in carbohydrates and vegetable matter

PHChristy: also

PHChristy: kibble is high in CALCIUM

PHChristy: so I'm not sure adding bony cuts is a good idea

PHChristy: maybe just a little fresh meat

PHChristy: eggs

Silken_nr: I don't have a good feeling about Bil Jac, what is your take. My dogs have a high PH

PHChristy: yogurt

PHChristy: I don't know anything about Bil Jac

PHChristy: a high urinary pH?

PHChristy: ALL of them?

PHChristy: how high?

Silken_nr: yes both of them run 7-8

PHChristy: at the vet?

PHChristy: many dogs will have a high pH at the vet, from stress

PHChristy: I wouldn't worry unless it's high at home

Mothergoose: ?

Silken_nr: yes and at home with my strips

PHChristy: have you done a urinalysis and a urine culture?

PHChristy: very high grain diets can raise urinary pH, but they'd have to be quite high

Silken_nr: not the culture, just urinalysis

PHChristy: Unless their diet is SKY HIGH in carbs, I wouldn't be looking at the diet

Silken_nr: what about water?

PHChristy: the water? as in the pH of the water? Unless your water is extremely alkaline, to the point of unpalatability, I don't expect it could raise urinary pH

Silken_nr: I have been told extra vit C and or vinegar in the diet would help

PHChristy: Silken, this is a bit beyond the scope of tonight's discussion really.

Silken_nr: ok, thanks

PHChristy: please come back next week, we can dig into this!

PHChristy: ga

PHCatByte: westiewonder, your turn!

PHCatByte: hmmmmmmm..... 2pitties, do you have your question ready?

2pitties_nr: I was going to ask about cooked vs raw as homemade

2pitties_nr: is cooked good

westiewonder_nr: ooh ooh sorry - got distracted. Raw meat snacks with bone - any you'd recommend or avoid for a dog or do you have more of a blanket perspective on it, avoiding mixing homecooked and raw?

PHChristy: there are no nutritional reasons not to mix raw and cooked foods

PHChristy: and no, I can't think of any raw treats I'd recommend for or against... I haven't thought about it. :)

PHChristy: The reasons to choose a raw or cooked diet for your pet are personal ones

2pitties_nr: I raised a previous pet on leftovers and he grew up fine

westiewonder_nr: good to know because I do that (mix). thanks.

2pitties_nr: I just kept hearing that cooked wasn't good

PHChristy: dogs are raised on the same foods humans eat for centuries

PHChristy: cats, however, who are not able to hunt to supplement their diets, will not do well on the same foods we eat

PHChristy: also, if what we're eating is mac and cheese and pizza and soda, the dog won't do any better on that than we do

PHChristy: 2pitties, I know.... everyone has their opinion

2pitties_nr: so basically as long as its a balanced meal just like us

PHChristy: I'm more interested in helping people find the tools to make up their own minds than telling them what I think

PHChristy: 2pitties, for dogs, yes

PHChristy: growing giant and large breed puppies have special needs

2pitties_nr: yes I have 2 pits

PHChristy: pregnant and nursing animals have special needs

PHChristy: but adult dogs, not so much

PHChristy: however

fireladie: ?

PHChristy: that doesn't mean they won't do best on a careful diet.... in fact, so will we

2pitties_nr: boys one 5 yrs and a 1 1/2

PHChristy: ga

PHCatByte: confused, you have a question?

PHChristy: I am just saying adult dogs are fairly flexible nutritionally, compared to cats

PHChristy: they are more like humans

PHChristy: ga

confused_nr: I have a german shepherd that is 20 lb overweight. Now my question is does he need a diet that is higher in fiber or higher in protein. I have been running him lately but I need help with his diet. Any book suggestion on diet food for dogs

2pitties_nr: at what age is senior and how do you feed

PHChristy: confused, great question

lonewolf_nr: do you then feed a cooked diet?..............sorry if this has already been covered, late comer

PHChristy: hang on, folks :)

PHChristy: CatByte, can you close the queue?

PHChristy: I'll answer all remaining questions, but that's it

PHChristy: assuming PHMisty doesn't object to my running over a few minutes into her chat

PHCatByte: :::closed::::

PHChristy: I don't believe in senior diets

Skaket: Not at all.

PHChristy: and the age at which a pet is a "senior" will vary by breed and species and even by individual

PHChristy: For the overweight GSD

PHChristy: I believe that keeping pets lean is CRITICAL

PHChristy: most dogs and cats in this country are fat

Dogdaze_nr: ?

PHValkyrie: Unfortunate, but true.

PHChristy: dogs and cats have no dietary requirement for carbohydrates, so if we're trying to cut down on calories, isn't that the obvious place to start?

PHChristy: In addition, we KNOW that carbohydrate-based diets are correlated with diabetes in cats, as is obesity

PHChristy: so.... seems to me that fiber and carbs are not the answer

PHChristy: "Catkins" type diets, with careful portion control and with appropriate exercise, are the answer

PHValkyrie: The kibble diets that are high in fiber are running under the premise that they will make the dog "feel full".

PHChristy: once an underlying condition such as Cushings has been ruled out

PHChristy: yes, when owners comply, weight loss in pets is VERY successful

confused_nr: He just went to the Vet who did some blood work including checking for thyroid problems and all were normal.

PHChristy: the foods that enable the owners to keep filling that bowl, the "high fiber" foods

PHChristy: are for US, not the pets

PHValkyrie: But making them feel full makes you feel better

PHChristy: control the calories

PHValkyrie: oops, sorry

PHChristy: increase metabolic rate with appropriate exercise

PHChristy: and, in general as advice to all people and not aimed at you, stop working out YOUR emotional need to feed your dog or cat on your pet

PHChristy: if they are fat, unless they have Cushings or some other endocrine disorder, it's YOU

PHChristy: DIABLO!

PHChristy: sorry, let me go on

DiabloMini1: Christy!

PHChristy: ok, next question so I can let Misty have her chat room, LOL?

PHChristy: ga

PHCatByte: rouen, you have a question?

fireladie: lol christy

Rouen: would adding whole(bone, meat and organ) rodents(Frozen/Thaw) to a dogs BARF diet be beneficial?

confused_nr: Nope, not fat but I have to admit that I have been for the last year spoiling my dog by giving him treats. That has now stopped.

PHChristy: confused, I thought you said your dog was 20 lbs overweight, did I misunderstand?

confused_nr: Thank-you for answering my question about the fiber. It makes me feel a lot better about what I am now feeding him.

DiabloMini1: rodents????

PHChristy: Rouen, it would depend on what the rest of the diet comprised

PHChristy: and rodents are not a natural prey of the dog

PHChristy: but of the cat

PHChristy: of course, neither is chicken

fireladie: !

confused_nr: No, he's 20 lbs overweight, I meant that I'm not fat.

PHChristy: confused, I didn't say you were

PHChristy: I said if our DOGS and CATS are fat, it's us

Rouen: wild canids often hunt rodents, christy

PHChristy: it's because of us, not them

PHChristy: they don't take our car keys and hit the drive thru while we're asleep

confused_nr: Oh sorry, I misunderstood.

PHChristy: Rouen, no, they don't... not wolves.

PHValkyrie: Wolves do not hunt rodents.

fireladie: wild canids

Rouen: and some domesticated ones will hunt them if allowed

fireladie: not wolves

PHChristy: dogs are wolves

fireladie: foxes hunt rodents

PHChristy: wolves don't eat chickens or rodents

PHValkyrie: Our dogs are wolves, not coyotes.

PHChristy: they eat ungulates

PHValkyrie: Nor foxes

PHChristy: dogs are not foxes, they are wolves

Trudysmom: Hi pom

PHChristy: if you are going to discuss species-appropriate or prey model diets, you have to start with the right species

PHChristy: ga

PHCatByte: archie, you have a question?

fireladie: haha I know, but rou said wild canids... foxes are a canid

archie_nr: which books would you recommend for the best recipes for cats? I don't care cooked or raw. I've got The Ultimate Diet already is that one OK? Other better ones? Sorry if already answered I got to the chat late. ga

Trudysmom: IS there a small dog chat tonight????

PHValkyrie: There is a 0.2% mitochondrial difference between wolves and dogs. It's even further difference between dogs and coyotes and it's an even further difference between dogs and foxes.

PHChristy: archie, Dr. Strombeck's book has a number of grain-free feline recipes, I like those

Trudysmom: oh....

PHChristy: Trudysmom, yes, in a few minutes

PHChristy: ga

PHChristy: we have one more question :)

PHChristy: ga

PHCatByte: mothergoose, your question?

PHChristy: we apologize for running over!

PHMisty: No problem.

Mothergoose: I wonder if Flint River Ranch kibble and cat food are good and I occasionally feed raw meat (i.e. wings, or backs) to supplement.

PHChristy: I don't know anything about that kibble, so I can't comment on it. I would in general feed plain meat, not meaty bones, if being used to supplement kibble, as kibble is already high in calcium

PHChristy: calcium

Mothergoose: My dog also has white hairs showing through his coat and it was originally mostly black...could that be a deficiency?

PHChristy: but if it's very rare, it probably doesn't make that much difference nutritionally

PHValkyrie: How old is your dog?

catsteins_nr: Hello, I am new here. My vet told me the homemade diets were not reliable; what is the consensus here about that?

Mothergoose: 7 years old

PHValkyrie: What breed?

PHChristy: catsteins, LOL, that makes no sense...

Mothergoose: Doberman mix

PHChristy: since there is no such thing as "homemade diets." Every diet has to be evaluated on the basis if what's in it.

PHValkyrie: I'd say that you're seeing a natural aging process. :-)

catsteins_nr: You mean my vet's opinion?

PHChristy: it's very unscientific to lump them all together.

PHChristy: catsteins, yes

PHChristy: you can say a specific diet is not reliable, or balanced, or appropriate

catsteins_nr: Well, I would rather feed a natural diet, but don't want to shortchange them.

PHChristy: but to say ALL homemade diets are "not reliable" is to make a sweeping generalization that can't be supported with evidence

PHChristy: catsteins, that was the topic of our chat, which is now, unfortunately over

PHChristy: I recommend the books Dr. Pitcairn's Complete Guide to Natural Health for Dogs and Cats'

PHChristy: and Home Prepared Dog and Cat Diets: The Healthful Alternative by Donald Strombeck DVM PhD

PHChristy: the diets in those are nutritionally balanced and wholesome

PHChristy: and proven over time

catsteins_nr: oh...as I said, I am new here and this must be east coast time. I'll know better next time.

PHChristy: also, everyone, please join us each week on Thursday at 9 PM ET in this room

PHChristy: goodnight, and thank you for coming!

PHChristy: we'll now start Small Dog Chat

PHChristy: GOODNIGHT!

PHValkyrie: We'll be here and I hope to see you all next week. Thanks for coming!