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PHAbymom:On behalf of Jeff Barringer and all of us at Cathobbyist.com, I sincerely wish to thank Joan Miller for being our part of our 10th annual Chat Week! Joan Miller is legislative coordinator for the Cat Fanciers Association -- the largest feline registry in the world. From Joan: "The cat fancy and CFA's future is impacted by unduly restrictive laws, such as limits on the numbers of cats per household, mandatory spay/neuter, cattery licensing with high fees and intrusive inspection. While detrimental to the hobby of pedigreed cat breeding many laws do not solve community animal population problems. They do keep new people from coming into the cat fancy."

Joan is here this evening to explain more about all the issues that can surround one small law and how it can effect cat ownership.

Ladies and Gentlemen, I present Joan Miller.

JoanMiller: Thank you! I'm always pleased to talk about legislation and delighted to be a part of this chat event. Legislation is not fun, but those of us who care about the pedigreed breeds of cats are fighters. We face many detrimental proposals all over the country that could mean the end of rare breeds and the cat fancy itself. It is especially frustrating to realize that even if every pedigreed cat were gone there would not be any change in the numbers of cats in shelters.

My job for CFA is to coordinate. I am the one who must herd the cat lovers around the country and develop an active informed legislative network. CFA has a Legislative Analyst, Sharon Coleman, and a Legislative Information Liaison, George Eigenhauser. The three of us handle federal, state and local ordinances. Right now we are monitoring about 200 State bills and several local ordinances.

The types of laws we address each year seem to change - there are limits on the cats one can own or "harbor"; there are cats at-large laws that harm those caring for feral cats; cat licensing and mandatory microchipping; breeder permits that treat home-based breeders as if they are businesses. This is the year of Mandatory Spay and Neuter.

We all know that cats are free spirits & they refuse to do things when forced. But they are quite adaptable when encouraged. They like the easy way and with consistent repetition they learn new tricks. Cat owners are similar. Social marketing to change attitudes is far better than coercion when it comes to cat people. Many legislative proposals today assume pet owners are responsible for all the cat population problems and should be punished with fees and fines.

Our approach is to recognize that most cat owners are caring people. Most will do the right thing if they are aware and given the opportunity. Most do have their pets sterilized 87% to 93% They do not accept a cat owner tax, i.e. cat licensing, but they will identify their cats. They do take care of freeroaming and feral cats if there is help available for trapping and low-cost sterilization.

We think the numbers of cats in shelters can be reduced without passing laws that target the breeders of pedigreed cats. We think cat population problems must first be defined before they can be solved. I would be happy to answer questions.

mkcdanvers_nr: how can folks other than breeders help in the battle against AR.......and please explain AW vs AR...

JoanMiller: That's a difficult question. I'll take the last part first. I believe that Animal Welfare and Animal Rights has somewhat blurred. It's not as clearcut as it used to be. This is particularly the case with cat issues.

mkcdanvers_nr: & how ARists have co-opted the term Welfare

JoanMiller: Many of our supporters for trap netuer and return for feral cats consider themselves aligned with animal rights activists. I prefer not to label people. And work with everyone that we see that has mutual interests.

As far as how do we reach the public, non-breeders, I think that we will do it through social marketing techniques that are just evolving. We do it by articles and blogs and websites. The numbers of cats people that are now going to the internet for information is expanding dramatically.

PHAbymom:Joan, isn't it true that rescue groups have many of the same concerns as hobby breeders... as far as harboring a given number?

JoanMiller: Absolutely true.

JoanMiller: We have for many years fought limit laws, because the idea of limiting the number of cats you can have in your home is detrimental not only to rescue people but those who care for or harbor feral cats that may not be in their home but are still counted as cats that they "own" This is definitely not just a problem for breeders and pedigreed cats.

NYC_NYIfan: What is the current status of Bengals regarding breed-specific legislation?

JoanMiller: First, I'd have to state that because I work with CFA and that's a breed we don't accept, I'm not familiar with everything that's going on. However, I have some wonderful contacts in other associations that do accept Bengals, and whenver we see a state law that would restrict the breeding of domestic cats to hybrid cats, or the keeping of these cats, I always forward them to my contacts in the other associations. We have a good tracking system, and I always catch these laws.

Time01: Just for clarification They want to License all cats like dog, even mixed house cats and spray neuter all even show cats?

JoanMiller: Time, generally the push toward licesning of cats has subsided in recent years. It has been totally unsuccessful. In the mid-90s there was a study comparing the rates of licensing of dogs vs licensing of cats in the country done by the FUnd for Animals

JoanMiller: they determined that the high rate for dog licensing was around 20 percent in most communities. Many were as low as 10 or 12 percent. Cat licensing was about half the dog licensing rate. Just as an example, not much has changed. In Palm Beach County that we've been addressing an ordinance in recently, they have 30 percent licensing of dogs, and 7 percent of cats. Cat owners simply consider it a tax on pet ownership. That particularly targets those who are helping to take in stray and feral cats. And when dog fanciers feel that responsible dog owners license their dogs, cat people say, well, what about the other 70 or 80 percent that are not?

If dog licensing were introduced today, most of our dog friends would probably be against it. What's amazing is that rabies vaccination of cats is just about equal to that of dogs. The same percentage take their cats in for rabies vaccination as dogs, even though rabies vaccination of cats is not required in most states.

In other words, it goes back to my remarks: Cat owners want to do the right thing. If they're told rabies vaccination is a good thing for their cats, they will do it. They don't need licesning to force them.

Emily_nr: Suppose I say I only have one cat when I sign a lease. Then I don't have that cat anymore, but I start fostering. Will I be charged the monthly fee during the time I have no cat?

JoanMiller: I really can't answer that. It depends on your apartment or condo association rules. Most of them will allow a pet owner to address their association if they want to -- I'm about to address a condo association myself!

JoanMiller: I have had for many years apartments and condos that I've rented out as income, and have always been pet friendly. I have a tenant right now who put up a bamboo arrangement to keep his cat from leaving his terrace, and I am going to fight on his behalf to keep it. They don't want the cat running around, but they won't help him keep his cat indoors.

JoanMiller: I think they should be enlightened. I've seen apartment companies that require declawing of all cats. A big chain called the Fairfield Company in California. And they should be challenged.

JoanMiller: So I encourage you to go to an apartment owners' or condo owners' meeting or talk to the property management, and see what you can do.

Wiscats: Do such licenses apply the same way to those who foster cats for rescue groups or animal shelters, or are the laws relaxed for such people since those cats are in the home temporarily (allegedly)? If this question was asked/answered before I came in I apologize.

JoanMiller: That depends on the individual ordinance. Normally, local jurisdictions make decisions on licensing laws. Most jurisdictions define an "owner" and very often, it's anyone that 'harbors" a cat for 30 days. So even if you are feeding and have neutered and spayed an unowned cat that you cannot even touch, you would still be considered that cat's owner, and would have to comply with all the laws in that community, including license.

Audra_nr: How can we be proactive with this kind of legislation?

JoanMiller: Proactive is a word that is very broad.My own feeling is "proactive" does not involve legislation. It involves defining the issues, and it means formulating a plan. It means determining programs and services that the community needs. It means having a collaborative approach so that the shelters, rescue people, and breeders will work together for a goal. When you look at the communities that have been successful, there are no legislative components. Examples would be San Francisco and San Diego, where I live... they had a five year plan, and they have no punitive legislation in the plan. They were no kill by four years into the plan.

JoanMiller: Oh wait I'd like to add that legislation has, for many years, since the 80s, been part of an overall approach that's called the LES: Legislation, Education, and Sterilization. I believe it has been for all of these years, been considered a quick fix for very complex problems. What is left out of the "LES" equation is the shelters' responsiblity.For providing programs and services targeted to the population of the public that needs help.

Emily_nr: I have read about laws being passed to require cats be kept on the owner's property. Animal welfare experts worry the law won't help because that results in more cats being sent to shelters. I think it hurts because "property" can mean in the yard, not just the house.

JoanMiller: We are very opposed to what we consider the "cat leash laws" or the "cats at large" laws. An example of a law that we fought and that was passed anyway, was in Akron, Ohio. Thousands of cats have been trapped by animal control and killed, merely because they were "running at large."These cats were owned cats as well as unowned and feral cats. The community was outraged. And as far as I know, they still have not repealed that law, but they have cut back on their trapping.

Time01: Do you think this legislation might be able to limit your cat family? Indoor cats and farrel cats that you feed?

JoanMiller: Limit laws, mandatory neuter/spay laws, cats at large laws, cat licensing, nuisance laws...they all impact the people who are doing rescue or caring for feral cats.

forestdolls_nr: Are the catteries in Calif. starting to disappear, with all the mandatory spay/neuter bills & laws that have been appearing in the last couple years ?

JoanMiller: We don't have any specific data on that. Actually, very few of these laws that have been proposed have actually passed. We believe that in Sacramento, there are people that have moved away. In Los Angeles City, there are very few breeders left. In Stanislaus County, there are few. These are communities that have passed restrictive laws on breeders, or mandatory neuter/spay. However, we have no state data. It would be interesting to have that! Before I take the next question, I'd like to expand on an earlier answer. What we're finding in recent years is what we refer to as "and cat" laws. Recently, we have seen cats added to dangerous animals, dangerous dog laws. They just say "and cats."

JoanMiller: So if a kitten happens to scratch you, it would be a provactive action that would mean the kitten is vicious, or at least dangerous. Leash laws are an example of that. Dogs are not allowed to roam at large, and then they add "and cats." It's as simple as that.

JoanMiller: I would like to say something about the situation of cats being at large. We do have nuisance laws in most communities, and they are the most effective and reasonable of all laws to protect a person's right to enjoyment of their property. Certainly when a cat is neutered or spayed, it makes a big difference as far as howling or odor, and the roaming radius is less. Generally, cats who are neutered or spayed and roaming around the neighborhood, they don't cause a nuisance in the eyes of most people.

JoanMiller: We've seen from some studies that people keeping their cats indoors is starting to increase. This is without legislation. This is because cat owners are basically caring people, and they know their cat is safe. I try to persuade people to at least keep their cat indoors at night. That's a start. And gradually, I think we will have fewer owned cats on the streets.

Emily_nr: Do cops generally remember to check for microchips?

JoanMiller: One of the most frustrating proposals that we see is mandatory microchipping. The very first step in utilizing a microchip as a successful form of identification is for shelters to be required to scan. This is a state law in California.

JoanMiller: Even so, many animal control people with whom I talk say they have a hard time scanning some of the cats. They can't even touch them. Their scanners are missing batteries. They're in the drawer. Often the cat is not scanned until just before they euthanize the cat. This is disgraceful and yet California is more advanced than almsot any other state, at least requiring mandatory scanning. And ideally, every field officer should have a scanner in the truck. But many cats have microchips that cannot be read by the existing scanners, so an officer would have to have numerous scanners.

JoanMiller: So although I think microchipping is a good technology for those who choose to utilize it, it's by no means perfected. Therefore, we oppose mandatory microchipping.

PHAbymom:Joan, what can be done to target the underside of the cat world, backyard breeders, kitten mills, etc. that are one of the reasons that a lot of overpopulation exists?

JoanMiller: That is an interesting question because I am not in agreement with the premise of the assumption that this IS a problem. First, I don't use the word "kitten mill." I've known for the 30-some years I've been in the cat fancy, commercial breeding of cats is not feasible. To house a number of cats makes them vulnerable to infectious disease, much more so than dogs. There isn't a market that makes it profitable enough. There's no economic model that would entice anyone to think of this as a good business. I've gone to USDA meetings and I've talked to inspectors. In the Midwestern states, and they tell me they rarely if ever see any commercial breeding of cats, they may find dog breeders who have some breeds of cats, reluctantly, and they tell me they will only have around ten cats, that's it. They don't really like to deal with them. It's so hard to transport them, to house them.

JoanMiller: CFA has our own inspection of any high volume breeders, and we probably had last year about 120 in the entire country. They all must have inspection to continue to register kittens with CFA, and we did not have any that did not pass their inspection. Now, if we have a problem breeder in CFA, the other associations honor our decisions to suspend services for animal welfare problems. They are wonderful that way.

JoanMiller: The other thing is, the backyard breeder term I don't use either. I used to raise fullblood cattle, and a "backyard breeder" was the word the cattle people used for someone who didn't have a ranch, but just had cows in the back of the yard. So they looked down upon the home breeders of cows.

JoanMiller: We consider home-raised cats to be the optimum. The people who raise cats in their home as part of the family have the most socialized kittens, the healithiest kittens, and provide the wonderful pets for people. So I prefer to speak about breeders that are perhaps not yet with a breeding program... I like to talk about them as either "novice breeders" or "casual breeders."

JoanMiller: A novice breeder is someone who would like to do the right thing, but need some guidance. So we have CFA's mentor program. We have CFA's Newbee Program.This is to help people get started out teh right way, to have some help.

JoanMiller: Now, the casual breeders are out there. Those are people that really are not concerned about bettering their breed. They're not concerned about being mentored. They may have two cats, a male and a female, and they breed them.
JoanMiller: Although we may not consider that advancing a breed or optimum, they are really not impacting the shelter population.

JoanMiller: I'd like to say something else...I wanted to tell you about the worst bill I've seen this year. We just received a bill that was pre-filed in Hawaii. It prohibits any person from feeding a feral cat in areas accessible to the general public, which is literally everywhere. Any person who violates this will be fined up to one thousand dollars for each separate offense or cat. The good news is it's already killed. This is what happens to bills sometimes. We just kill 'em.

cannonbawlfranci: Then if kitten and puppy mills are a myth, where do all the poorly bred pet store animals come from?

JoanMiller: I didn't say puppy mills are a myth. I think the "puppy mill" term is derogatory. If pet stores were providing the dogs in the shelters then you would have to assume that all the pet stores were selling is big black dogs and pit bull type dogs. Because that's what we see in most shelters in the US today.

JoanMiller: First of all, pet stores like to buy their puppies from USDA licensed breeders and brokers. And many breeders that have three bitches or fewer are not USDA licensed, but they can also sell to pet stores or to brokers. Pet stores are in business to sell healthy dogs. They do not like complaints. I fear that many of the laws in which they refer to "puppy mills" are actually an attempt to get public support for ending all breeding.

JoanMiller: There are many parts of the country where it's very hard to get small dogs. You dont' find poodles or Shih Tzus in lots of shelters. The public that has a demand for these dogs will continue to get them. If the small breeders are prohbited from continuing their breeding programs, then the internet will be a source, and importing dogs will be a source.

JoanMiller: At least in pet store, you can see what you're buying. Many states have very strict warranty laws to protect those who buy pets in pet stores. So I'd be very careful of condemning the pet stores.

Wiscats: I believe that those who casually breed their male and female cats ARE impacting the shelter population in that when they "find homes for their kittens," those are homes that did not go to shelter cats. They are often also kittens who are advertised "free to good home" which can and does bring out people who want them for all kinds of reasons that have nothing to do with giving them a home. Your take on these statements, please?

JoanMiller: First of all, I would generally agree with the fact that casual breeders DO impact the shelter cat population. But I have to say that it makes a difference of whether they are planned matings ... most of the litters born are what we call "ooops" litters. There was some research a number of years ago that showed that the number one reason why people did not neuter and spay their cats was not because they couldnt' afford it but because they hadn't gotten around to it.

JoanMiller: The number two reason was because they thought their kitten was too young. Many people don't realize that a kitten four or five months of age can get pregnant. Many people don't understand the reproductive physiology of the cat. And the fact that they come in heat constantly. When they let them out, they are surprised that they have a pregnant cat. Now, what are they to do? They try to place kittens, but there's no market for them.

JoanMiller: Almost forty percent of all people obtain their cats from their neighbors and friends. I would rather they take them to the shelter than abandon them, if they cannot find them homes. I know that when many people take their kittens to the shelter, they are offered many incentives to spay the mother.

JoanMiller: I really think that one of the main things that could impact this problem is to target marketing toward reaching the casual pet owner with an unaltered cat that allows mating or has an "oops" litter.

JoanMiller: I want to clarify: Earlier, when I said casual breeders, I meant casual breeders of pedigreed cats. There are some who believes any kitten born is displacing a cat from a shelter. I think that goes to the point of whether one values pedigreed breeds or not. Because every single pedigreed breed, many are rare now, and they could all be gone, and I don't think there would be any change in the shelter population.

JoanMiller: The only research that was done on the number of pedigreed cats in shelters was done by the American Humane Association, and it was less than .1 percent. This was done in 1991. Most shelters today say it's negligible.

JoanMiller: We only have approximately five percent of owned cats that are considered pedigreed. When you compare that to 50-60 percent of purebred dogs in people's homes. I would not like to see pedigreed cats go extinct. They have special personality characteristics. They have predictable qualities. They meet people's expectations. Frankly, I love the random bred cats as well, but we have this time have too many available. But I would not like them to be extinct, either.

PHAbymom:Joan did you have some additional remarks?

JoanMiller: I'd like to discuss where are all the cats coming from in shelters, and would legislation change that? The shelter data is very sporadic and not consistent. But we are finding that many shelters are taking in at least 60 percent of their cats as free roaming and feral cats. And a huge percentage of feral kittens. Because there aren't enough foster homes or baby bottle programs for these kittens, they're usually killed in the shelter.

JoanMiller: If we want to really impact the shelter population, we simply have to help people to trap neuter and return cats not just in colonies, but in their backyards. In several studies, people who feed the cats are asked if they took the next step to sterilize them. Only five percent do that. A consisent message needs to go out: If you feed a stray, neuter and spay. These are not bad people, they are people who care for cats. But when you have a six week waiting list for a neuter or spay clinic, and you don't know where or how to get a trap, the cats will continue to reproduce.

JoanMiller: People will pick up the kittens, but the mother goes right on to produce another litter. It is very sad, and it's something we need to target. Mandatory neuter/spay laws don't even begin to address this problem. They are actually a deterrent, because people have fear of fines and fees if they take in a cat.

JoanMiller: That's where the emphasis needs to be in California and other states where the weather is conducive to free roaming cats. We have to turn all our attention to sterilizing the thousands of cats who are out there.

JoanMiller: We estimate anywhere from 15 to 25 million feral cats on a national level. We're talking about millions of cats, and we're never going to solve this problem by the quick fix legislation that gets media hype and then fades away, cannot be enforce, and does not impact the shelter population.

JoanMiller: I appreciate everybody being interested and hope they will be part of the network of cat people that are concerned about cat population problems. Please go to www.cfa.org and find the link to legislation information.

JoanMiller: People out there are our eyes and ears. You're the only way we learn about ordinances popping up in small communities and counties. We welcome hearing from people that are concerned about cat issues. Thank you very much for being here, and helping in every way to care for cats.

JoanMiller: Goodnight!

PHAbymom:On behalf of Jeff Barringer and all of us here at all the Cathobbyist.com communities, we want to thank you for taking your time to chat with us. Once again, Thank you Joan. For more information about the Cat Fanciers Association, visit,http://www.cfainc.org/.