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As part of PetHobbyist.com's annual Chat Week, Dr. Susan Wynn was our special guest for a chat on "Herbal Veterinary Therapies: What We Know and Don't Know."

Transcript

PHChristy Hello and welcome to the fourth night of PetHobbyist.com's Fourth Annual Chat Week!

PHChristy I'm Christie Keith, director of community services for pethobbyist.com. We are extremely happy to see you all here tonight and to welcome our very special guest, author and veterinarian Dr. Susan Wynn, for a question and answer session on "Veterinary Herbal Therapies: What we know and don't know."

PHChristy Dr. Wynn is a leading researcher and author on alternative and complementary veterinary medicine. She graduated from the University of Georgia in 1987.

PHChristy She did her post doctoral fellowship in viral immunology at Emory University School of Medicine, 1993-1997. She was certified in acupuncture in 1998, and is the founder and executive director of Georgia Holistic Veterinary Medical Association as well as the Veterinary Botanical Medicine Association.

PHChristy Dr. Wynn is also the Secretary/Treasurer, American Academy of Veterinary Nutrition and a Panel member for Wellcome Trust Closed meeting for Advanced Research in Complementary and Alternative Medicine (London, UK) and Commonweal Consensus Meeting on Animal Homeopathy (Bolinas, CA).

PHChristy She is an ad hoc panelist for the National Institutes of Health, Office of Alternative Medicine and an alternative veterinary medicine consultant for the Veterinary Information Network.

PHChristy She is on a number of advisory boards, including the National Animal Supplement Council, the Veterinary Institute of Integrative Medicine, and Sargent's Pet Products.

PHChristy As well, Dr. Wynn is co-editor, Complementary and Alternative Veterinary Medicine: Principles and Practice (Mosby, 1998); author, Emerging Therapies: Using Herbs and Nutraceuticals in Small Animals (AAHA Press, 1999); and co-author, Manual of Natural Veterinary Medicine: Science and Tradition. (Mosby, 2003).

PHChristy Now on behalf of all of us at PetHobbyist.com, I'd like to turn the floor over to Dr. Wynn, who has a few opening remarks before we start taking questions!

PHChristy Welcome, Dr. Wynn!

DrWynn Hello Everyone. I'm honored to have been invited to chat with you all tonight. We are limiting our discussion to herbal medicine, and specifically to how we know what we know

DrWynn By way of a bit of background, I've been using alternative medicine for 15 years, and have written 3 professional level textbooks on the subject. I've been a gardener, however, since I was a teenager, and I've enjoyed getting to the know the plants and exploring the healing relationship that we have with them.

DrWynn I'm interested in both science and tradition of herbal medicine, and in evidence-based medicine as a way to judge our decision making. I recently founded the Veterinary Botanical Medicine Association, and hope that we can bring plant medicine to more doctors - and more animals - soon.

DrWynn Ok, and now for your questions! GA....

PHChristy ?

PHTomcat ?

PHMowgli que is PHChristy

PHMowgli Christy go ahead

PHChristy Dr. Wynn, I have been using saw palmetto on a dog with benign hypertropic prostatis

PHChristy I'm curious, is there any research in dogs to back up the effectiveness of this herb? I've relied on human data.

PHChristy ga

PHChristy btw it IS working

PHChristy ga

MokieDokie ?

DrWynn The data for human BPH is fabulous - it works as well as finasteride, but...

DrWynn there was a single trial in dogs, and Barsanti et al, at UGA

ByngCalicoRulesGalaxy ?

DrWynn found that there was no effect. They used adequate doses and everything looked right, but

DrWynn unfortunately, they used dogs with NO clinical signs. Since

DrWynn the herb is effective ONLY for clinical signs, and not prostatic size, we still don't know

PHChristy what dose did they use they use? Symptom was impeded urinary flow. It improved within three days.

PHChristy ga

DrWynn if Saw palmetto is good for dogs. I suspect that it is and would recommend it if necessary

LaylaAnne ?

DrWynn I don't remember offhand. I can look it up, but I calculated that it was proportional to the human dose (they used large hound crosses)

mickey4paws ?

laddiesmom ?

PHChristy that's what I'm using, thank you very much! ga

CajunThunder ?

DrWynn GA next person?

PHMowgli PHTomcat you are up

PHTomcat Dr. Wynn, I have a 2 year old maine coon diagnosed with muticentric lymphoma. She has only one chemo treatment left. I am researching the idea of using herbs for her treatment, can you give me any suggestions as to the types of herbs that would help her. Especially those dealing with nausea? Have they done research using herbs for lymphoma cats? ga

DrWynn NOTHING on herbs for lymphoma, in people, dogs or cats, but

DrWynn herbalists would still recommend them to support chemo. I tend to handle lymphoma by

DrWynn recommending paleolithic diet (homemade is the only way to go), antioxidants,

DrWynn fish oil, and herbs specific for the case. What does that mean?

DrWynn It means that we assess the other signs, like

DrWynn nausea, accompanying skin, urologic, etc problems, and then look at tongue and maybe pulse.

DrWynn For nausea,

DrWynn ginger is the best single herb. There was a single clinical trial on dogs with chemo-induced nausea, and

DrWynn a high dose of an acetone extract was effective. I don't know what that means for

DrWynn cats, or what it means for fresh ginger, but it's worth trying. We use

DrWynn fresh ginger made into a tea, or capsules (so the cat doesn't have to taste it)

DrWynn Proportional dosing, like 1/8-/1/4 of the human dose, is probably ok.

DrWynn GA.

PHTomcat I tried ginger tea last night and it seemed to help her some. Fresh ginger is better then the ginger tea in the grocery store?

PHMowgli MokieDokie you are next

PHMowgli sorry tomcat

PHTomcat That's okay Mowgli

DrWynn I don't think it makes a difference what form you use to begin with, but experiment with various forms.

DrWynn GA

PHTomcat Thank you Dr. Wynn. Ga

PHMowgli MokieDokie go ahead

teddybear9099 is there anything we can give to calm our Maine Coon down at night so he won't chase our other cat arond

DrWynn This is a great question!

DrWynn The problem is that the cat is probably exhibiting normal behavior, and suppressing normal

DrWynn behavior is fraught with difficulties. For problems like these

MokieDokie Dr. Wynn, Thanks so much for spending time to answer our questions. I would like to know how I can determine what is a good gentle herbal parasite/wormer/colon cleanser for my 9 lb. dogs...? I look at varouis products and wonder if some of the ingredients may be unnecessarily harsh - such as wormwood or black walnut hulls. I seem to read a lot of conflicting info on whether certain herbs are safe,

MokieDokie Not safe, kinda safe, etc. I like to err on the side of caution. Any suggestions of specific products, or what to look for in an herbal parasite cleanse?

DrWynn I usually recommend that my clients consult a board certified veterinary behaviorist, then use sedative herbs if necessary.

DrWynn Sorry, I didn't follow protocol - give me a second!

teddybear9099 she didn't know what to give him

PHChristy teddybear, hang on til PHMowgli calls on you, ok? :)

DrWynn OK, herbal cleansers/dewormers...

DrWynn first, I think it's important to know if the dog has worms. If so,

DrWynn use a conventional dewormer. They are safer - MUCH - and more effective, than herbal dewormers. The real question

DrWynn is why you want to use a cleanser/dewormer. There are many traditions and philosophies

MokieDokie ah...that's what i've heard.

DrWynn surrounding herbal and naturopathic medicine. One of them has been called heroic, and that tradition

MokieDokie i mean about conventional ones being safer...

DrWynn holds that you must constantly 'cleanse' as your body can never be clean.

DrWynn If you want to maintain health with gentle cleansers, my recommendation is frequent fiber, like oatmeal treats!

DrWynn For dewormers, I wouldn't count on enzymes, wormwood and black walnut, but they may well be effective.

DrWynn GA

PHMowgli at any time during the chat, you may type a ? if you have a question, and a ! if you have a comment. The host will add your name to the queue, and you will be called on, in order. Please do not chat into the room until you have been called on!

Mickey4Paws ?

PHChristy We will be posting a transcript of this chat after the weekend!

PHMowgli Teddy bear let's finish yours

PHChristy several have IMed to ask

MokieDokie i think a periodic cleansing, say...once a year might be a good idea. last summer one had whips and one had hooks. i couldn't find an herbal one i thought would be effective so used Interceptor.

DrWynn Good plan!

DrWynn As for teddybear's sedative herbs,,,

DrWynn I can't say what is necessarily safe for an individual cat, but

DrWynn valerian, passionflower and skullcap might be considered. Combinations are

DrWynn generally considered safer than single herbs, and

DrWynn stay away from using kava kava long term.

DrWynn GA

PHMowgli ByngCalico please go ahead with your question

ByngCalicoRulesGalaxy What about celery boiled in water & cooled down, added to water of cat with panic attacks?

MokieDokie ?

ByngCalicoRulesGalaxy My other cat had that when she was 3, outgrew them, but now is 17 and is having

DrWynn Celery is a great source of sodium and a nice nutritional supplement. It could have a mild effect. I've heard of

ByngCalicoRulesGalaxy senior disorientation crying at nite

DrWynn mild effects from many nutritional supplements, and I think there may well be a problem with the

DrWynn nutrition the cat is getting in the firrst place, if this occurs.

teddybear9099 where can i get it this at

DrWynn Ah, I wouldn't necessarily call those panic attacks. Yowling at night in older cats is

DrWynn frequently due to hyperthyroidism, and younger cats have behavioral messages they may be trying to relay.

ByngCalicoRulesGalaxy K, this cat (Goalie) had the panic attacks when she was younger.

PHChristy If you have a question, type a ?. PHMowgli will add your name to the queue, and you will be called on, in order. Please do not chat into the room until you have been called on!

teddybear9099 he just chases him and corner hims to the point where now he's so scared

ByngCalicoRulesGalaxy She's had recent bloodwork, and the T4 & free T4 were normal, thank goodness

DrWynn Teddybear - health food stores have herbs , but so do many grocery stores now. Stick with large national brands carried at grocery

DrWynn stores if at all possible.

ByngCalicoRulesGalaxy thanks, ga

PHMowgli Laddiesmom you are next

laddiesmom I have a 9.5 year old sheltie that has ehrlichia, he is on antibiotics, is there anything i can give him in addition to the antibiotics? GA

DrWynn For the yowling older cat, I think I would look farther for a reason. If she is doing it because

PHMeowzers ?

DrWynn she is disoriented, you may need to consider antioxidants, ashwaganda, or consulting an herbalist because an exam might be necessary.

DrWynn Antibiotics are the way to go to suppress the erlichia. For a case like this, we don't

DrWynn have specific anti-erlichia herbs. We would be looking at associated symptoms, or

DrWynn thinking about what led to the problem in the first place. Since I

DrWynn don't have further information, I would be looking at this dog's diet first.

laddiesmom What foods do you recomend?

DrWynn Depends on what you have available near you. By far, the best food is a

DrWynn properly constructed homemade diet, (and an owner who knows how

MaryStraus ?

DrWynn to change it according to changes in the dog). If you have to feed commercial,

DrWynn I insist on rotating between good brands every 4-6 months - it's ridiculous

laddiesmom laddie prefers chicken and steak :)

DrWynn to say that we (humans) should be eating a varied diet full of fresh unprocessed food, but feed dogs a single, lifelong processed food!

teddybear9099 ?

DrWynn That being said, we use Innova, California Natural, Wysong, Flint River, Pet Guard, Canidae/Felidae, Nutro, Precise, and lots of others.

DrWynn GA

PHMowgli LaylaAnne your turn

laddiesmom BARF then is preferable to a commercial food?

LaylaAnne I have a pomeranian who is 13 and he has cardiomyopathy. In AZ we had a vet who recommended a lot of herbals and natural remedies. Here in MO they don't know anything about it, He was on Enelapril, accolate and coQ10, I wanted to know what you know about the effectiveness of coQ10 in heart problems in dogs. He has trouble tolerating the enzyme and these vets are no help at all. GA

DrWynn Homemade is preferable to commercial food. BARF is just one version, not for everyone.

laddiesmom thank you Dr. Wynn

DrWynn CoQ10 looks good on paper, but we haven't found concrete results in practice. It may be because

DrWynn results take months, or

DrWynn because we are using too low a dose. I have been recommending 20mg/kg daily, as opposed to

DrWynn the 2mg/kg commonly recommended. The good thing is that we don't yet recognize

DrWynn adverse effects at either dose.

PHChristy what would that be in pounds?

LaylaAnne He was on 30 mgs a day and doing very well until he began having gastric symptoms

DrWynn about half that amount.

DrWynn Are you sure gastric signs are from the CoQ10?

LaylaAnne That is hard to say since he is a pom and prone to gastric truoble anyway

DrWynn You could just halve the dose, then and see how it goes. I've heard of this but never confirmed it was from the CoQ10 - it's rare.

LaylaAnne That was what I was asking a vet here and he laughed at me for using such a thing in the first place

LaylaAnne I won't be going to him again.

LaylaAnne The vet I saw in AZX swore by it and he was doing MUVH better

LaylaAnne Much

LaylaAnne I will try halving the dose. TY

DrWynn Next?

PHAthena Thank you Dr Wynn for sharing your time, I am extremely hesitant to use antibiotics on the minor cuts & abrasions an active dog will have...any suggestions on remedies for the ordinary abrasions of daily life?

DrWynn I'm with you, if they are minor. I don't use anything systemically except

DrWynn maybe a good probiotic.

DrWynn You can try

PHAthena I'm concerned about the antibiotic creams we slather ourselves w/at the least abrasion.

DrWynn treating abrasions or large defects topically, for instance with

DrWynn comfrey, aloe, or calendula.

DrWynn GA

PHAthena A friend, Fanny, had a "cure" using geranium leaves...said it works miracles...

PHMowgli Mickey 4 paws go ahead

Mickey4Paws Hi Dr. Wynn, I have a 3 year old female cat with asthma. Her symptoms are coughing. She is on a raw homemade diet and vaccinated only as a kitten. Do you have any suggestions?

DrWynn It might - it's full of tannins. Reminds me of my favorite hotspot remedy - tea!

DrWynn Asthma can be very difficult. Here are my suggestions:

PHAthena Thanks, Athena is rather clumsy so I have lots of boo-boos to contend with...

DrWynn first, switch to an elimination diet. You can do this with raw food, but I'd

DrWynn recommend working with your vet to find novel proteins. Next

DrWynn fish oil, but you have to careful with it if you are using an elimination diet.

DrWynn Next, antioxidants and a mixed bioflavonoid supplement.

DrWynn Finally,

DrWynn there are definitely herbs that have been recommended and have supporting data

DrWynn for asthma. Some are toxic, like petasites, coltsfoot, Tylophora and I wouldn't recommend them.

Mickey4Paws We did try the elimination diet. She is getting antioxdants, not sure which bioflavinoid

DrWynn And then there are chinese herbs which are often a better choice, like

Mickey4Paws We tried licorice root, but didn't help

DrWynn Bai He Gu Jin (I think - it's Lily Restore Metal Decoction or something similar), and

DrWynn there are others, depending on the presentation.

DrWynn Licorice shouldn't be used long term by itself anyway, since in the doses you would think effective, it

DrWynn can have side effects.

Mickey4Paws We believe it's an airborne irritant with her

DrWynn Bioflavonoids can be gotten at grocery stores/pharmacies/health food stores.

DrWynn There is a clinical trial going on at one of the schools looking at allergy

DrWynn shots to treat feline asthma - I'm kind of a believer in allergy shots, so you might

DrWynn look into this.

DrWynn GA

PHMeowzers I have my Maine Coon on a maintenance dose of 500 mg of l-Lysine 3 times a week for Herpes eye problems. Used it everyday until we got it under control. Wanted to know if there is any problem in keeping him on this maintenance dose forever?

DrWynn The dose that has been recommended according to the latest clinical trial is

DrWynn 500mg twice daily. No one knows if it is safe to use that way, but your maintenance

DrWynn dose is much closer to acceptable. In my opinion, you gotta do what you gotta do -

DrWynn what else are you going to use to control it :-)

DrWynn GA

PHMeowzers Well it seems to be the only thing that keeps his eyes good, but I worry that it might hurt him in the long run

DrWynn BTW,, Melissa (lemon balm) is used in people for herpes - maybe that will help and help you reduce the lysine.

DrWynn GA

DrWynn Next?

PHMowgli CajunThunder go ahead

CajunThunder Dr. Wynn, I have a 6 year old neutered male Akita with Autoimmune Thyroiditis. He has been on a raw diet for almost 5 years and has recently taken a liking to eating dirt. Dr. Sagrera suggested trying a trace mineral supplement and I don't want to use kelp. I thought about Alfalfa, but read that it was an immune stimulant and not recommended for individuals with autoimmune diseases.

PHMeowzers Where do you get lemon balm???

PHMeowzers Never heard of it!

DrWynn Lemon balm - any herb shop or you can grow it!

PHMeowzers Thanks

DrWynn OK, autoimmune thyroiditis...

DrWynn First, I see nothing wrong with using a trace mineral supplement in pill form, but

DrWynn frankly, if he has thyroiditis and is on supplementation, you probably can't cure him anyway, and the disease

DrWynn is probably unstoppable, so if you use kelp, it isn't going to hurt him now. I'm

DrWynn more concerned about kelp in susceptible, not yet clinical animals.

DrWynn You might also want to

DrWynn try enzymes and probiotics, and a dramatic diet change, just to see if it really is a nutritional issue.

CajunThunder Okay thank you and one other quick question... do you think it's okay to plant a "grazing" herb garden for our dogs?

DrWynn There are no specific herbs for dirt eating, but you have already identifed some that are nice nutritional supplements.

DrWynn For specific treatment, you would need to identify other, specific signs.

PHMowgli magicgsd please go ahead

DrWynn I LOVE the idea of a grazing garden for any of our domestic animals!

DrWynn Next?

magicgsd Magic is a 7 yr old GSD weight 90 lbs at good weight. BARF diet mostly turkey and fish because of chronic allergies. Many supps including salmon oil. Has had immune problems all his life. Currently we're battling another round of yeasty ears and itching. He is on probiotics. Any other suggestions, please?

CajunThunder Thank you!! I plan on planting a nice one this spring!

DrWynn For food allergic dogs, it is critical to start with a TRUE elimination diet for a month or 3, then

DrWynn do food challenges - you cannot identify what they are allergic to otherwise, Then,

DrWynn it's critical to do some heavy duty rotation, because food allergic animals

DrWynn BECOME allergic to foods after repeated long term exposure. GSDs

DrWynn have terrible allergies in my practice, and I end up having to use fish, duck, rabbit, etc

DrWynn often. Other things for food allergy....

DrWynn a GOOD probiotic, glutamine, etc. BTW,

DrWynn for your food trial, you have to stop fish oil and other supplements.

DrWynn Herbs for dogs with ear/skin problems -

DrWynn unfortunately, chinese herbs work best, so you probably need to find an herbalist. One of the most

DrWynn commone prescriptions is Long Dan Xie Gan Tang, but you can hurt a dog with this

DrWynn one if it isn't appropriate for the case.

DrWynn GA

magicgsd Have done the elimination, will have to work on the rotation -- food supplies are a problem for me because of accessibility to affordable meats -- GSDs eat a lot! We do use glutamine. Fish oil was added after other elimination work.

magicgsd Thanks for the tips -- we'll continue the search for relief!

PHMowgli Mary Strauss go ahead with your question

MaryStraus When you say combinations are considered safer than single herbs, is that only for the sedatives you named (valerian, passionflower and skullcap), or would that apply to other herbs as well? If so, why?

DrWynn Try expanding your range for rotation, then, like fish (even canned fish, if necessary). * Guest07540 (java@=NrQEM45Q03.ipt.aol.com) has joined #theauditorium

DrWynn The epitome of herbal practice is formulas for a few reasons. First

magicgsd OK!

DrWynn they let you lower the dose of individual herbs in the formula, increasing safety if any of them are toxic. Second

DrWynn Combinations of herbs may have synergistic effects. Third

DrWynn Formulas allow you to cover ALL of a patient's signs - present signs in multiple systems OR

DrWynn susceptibilities that you know from past problems. It requires a lot of knowledge to design a good formula, and

DrWynn there are many different systems by which you can accomplish this. So

DrWynn a formula is best for any condition, but if you have strong herbs with potential adverse

DrWynn effects if used long term, formulas are a must.

DrWynn GA

MaryStraus Thanks!

PHChristy only one more question I'm afraid, folks!

PHMowgli angel416 go ahead with your question

angel416 i have a iyr old gsd that wasa poop eater. i began raw feeding 5 monhts ago and it stopped. but now it has started again.also, any successful herbal heartworm preventitives?

DrWynn Poop eating in GSD is a deep seated problem which I am SURE is not behavioral. I've had GSD's all my life and

DrWynn I haven't found a cure.

DrWynn Effective herbal heartworm preventives - the answer is...

DrWynn drum roll...

PHAthena ??????????

DrWynn No one knows, but it's possible that black walnut is effective. Just the same, until someone bothers

DrWynn to keep excellent records (like those veterinarians who recommend it or the manufacturers), I don

PHMowgli Dr.

DrWynn 't feel safe recommending it. My own dogs get heartgard.

PHMowgli Opps

angel416 every month?

DrWynn Heartgard every 6 weeks or so.

DrWynn OK

PHChristy Everyone, several of you have IMed me asking where Dr. Wynn practices. She practices in Marietta, Georgia at Wynn Clinic for Therapeutic Alternatives. The number is 770-424-6303.

PHChristy On behalf of PetHobbyist CEO Jeff Barringer, CatHobbyist.com site coordinator PHAbymom, DogHobbyist.com site coordinator PHFasDog, myself, and everyone at PetHobbyist.com, thank you, Dr. Wynn, for being such a wonderful guest!

PHChristy And thank you all for attending tonight!!!

DrWynn Thanks everyone - you're a sharp bunch!

PHChristy A transcript of Dr. Wynn's chat will be available at http://www.doghobbyist.com/DogChat.html and http://www.cathobbyist.com/CatChat.html by early next week or sooner.

PHMowgli Thank you Dr.Wynn

PHChristy We hope you will enjoy the other events of Chat Week, which you can find listed at http://www.pethobbyist.com/ChatWeek.html.

PHChristy Goodnight and thank you again!

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