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PHAbymom: Welcome to PetHobbyist's 7th Annual Chat Week! On behalf of Jeff Barringer, PetHobbyist and CatHobbyist we are pleased to have you join us for a chat with Lorraine Shelton, author of The Guide to the Tonkinese Cat and co-author of Robinson's Genetics for Cat Breeders and Veterinarians. Lorraine also breeds Persians and Turkish Angora under the Featherland Cattery name. Tonight's chat topic is Feline Genetic Health.

Emme: but Coccidia guess I have to read your article Lorraine does it say how they get that

PHAbymom: Our chat format tonight will be a protocol chat and we ask that you refrain from chatting during the discussion. We will take questions and comments so if you have a remark, please put a "?" or "!" to the screen and you will be called on in turn.

featherland: All of our species are related at the level of their genes. Much of what we know about cats was first learned in mice, dogs, or even in reptiles.

PHAbymom: Lorraine, I'll let you start off with your remarks

featherland: As we decipher the genetic nature of all of these species, we can become better cat breeders and even more fascinated cat owners, as we learn about how the molecules in each cell become the household pet we all know and love.

featherland: Well, looks like I jumped the gun a bit ;-)

featherland: I'll give folks a few seconds to back scroll... then take your questions.

PHAbymom: That's ok :)

DaKatzTonknTurks: Hi all

suedekitty_nr: ?

DaKatzTonknTurks: I MADE it YEAH!

levanti_nr: ?

suedekitty_nr: ?

PHWildCat: Sure:)

PHAbymom: Levanti go ahead

levanti_nr: thanks

levanti_nr: Lorraine, you say that chocolate and cinnamon have already been identified, is this available to commercial testing already?

levanti_nr: and, part two, is the chocolate gene definitely one, or is there still the possibility that there are two separate genes which can create chocolate

featherland: It hasn't amade its way to the Veterinary Genetics Laboratory, the commercial arm of the UC Davis veterinary lab, yet.

featherland: But if you have a population of cats segregating for chocolate and/or cinnamon (especially non-Persians), get samples to Dr. Leslie Lyons.

featherland: She is anxious to validate the test in multiple breeds.

featherland: I'd like to take a couple of second to explaint he concept of a "genetic pedigree".

levanti_nr: okay, so I have a programme starting soon exotic/cinnamon oriental to pick up the cinnamon gene, so my swabs would be of use to Leslie?

featherland: When a researcher is looking for a gene, they need a family of closely related cats.

PHAbymom: When you have finished your remark or question please put a ga (go ahead) at the end of your remark

PHAbymom: So we will know when to go on to the next person.

featherland: They need to establish a LARGE group of related cats, some of which are known to have the gene of interest, others known to NOT have the gene.

levanti_nr: okay Lorraine, thanks I will keep that in mind as I progress through my new programme ... ga

catiators: ?

PHCatByte: nyc, you're up

NYC_NYIfan: How can this help DSHs, who very often are the only generation their humans know? thanks, ga

featherland: So instead of just sending in swabs of cats that are the direct parents, grandparents, and great-grandparents of a particular cat, the lab is interested in the SIBLINGS of those cats and from half-siblings as well.

OSHCats_nr: ? Is there any valid nuber for a group of cats to collect from? I have heard 200 will establish a great amount of informtaion.

DaKatzTonknTurks: ?

featherland: 200 very closely related cats gives more information that 200 unrelated cats...

featherland: which is related to the question about DSH.

featherland: It really takes a KNOWN breeding colony to establish the rules of genetics and to go hunting for those genetics in a cat of unknown background.

featherland: For instance, there is a good suspicion right now that a simple mutation may be responsible for a significant number of cases of FIP in cats.

featherland: we don't know the gene, we don't know the mutation, but we have some possible "suspects".

Deerhounds: !

PHCurious: ! (me too)

featherland: If we can get samples from parents and littermates of cats who died of FIP, we may be able to find this genetic defect.

featherland: Then if a DSH goes into a cat hospital and is SUSPECTED of having FIP, a genetic test can help establish that diagnosis,

DaKatzTonknTurks: !

featherland: we may also be able to (far in the future) do a "scan" of genetic mutations to find out whether a kitten might be susceptible to a particular genetic problem.

featherland: If a kitten is known to have the gene for polycystic kidney disease, for example, there may be drugs that can slow th process and make the progression of the disease MUCH slower.

featherland: That, by the way, is a CURRENT UC Davis project... the investigation of a drug to slow down the progress of PKD.

featherland: For that study they are looking for breeders to participate in large screening groups to identify severely and moderately affected PKD positive Persians.

featherland: Next.

PHAbymom: Aren't they also working on HCM?

featherland: Yes, VERY important project, and one that is well on its way.

featherland: There is some element of LUCK in identifying these genes.

featherland: In the case of PKD, they got VERY lucky and what could have been three years of sequencing instrument time ended up being a few months.

PHCatByte: catiators, you're next since suede hasn't found her way back!

featherland: Out of dozens of possible gene "parts", they got a "hit" on the seventh strand of DNA!

catiators: I'm going back a bit - is the test for chocolate/cinnamon equally relevant for lavender/fawn?

featherland: It will tell blue from lavender from fawn.

featherland: But it will not tell a lavender from a chocolate, or a cinnamon from a fawn, or a blue from a black.

mariafgp_nr: sorry to come in late here but is there now a test for the chocolate gene?

featherland: The "dilute" (maltese) gene has not been found yet.

catiators: Do they want swabs of confirmed colors - or are they willing to make their own decision?

featherland: Yes, Maria, that is the current issue. There is a test at UC Davis for the chocolate gene.

catiators: I find fawn and lavender a bit more tricky to differentiate. ga

featherland: Confirmed colors help. But if the test is validated across breeds (and I would put GOOD money on that!), unknowns can be accepted at this stage too.

featherland: A cute story here...

featherland: UC Davis has an annual Genetics Extravaganza to which breeders are invited every year.

featherland: It is an excellent forum for students to make a presentation to an audience, and the cat fancy gets informed about the very latest research in the lab.

mariafgp_nr: i have chocolate point (that is how she is registered) bred to a seal point who produced a blue cream point and tortie point. is there a test to tell if she is actually a chocolate tortie point? it is possible that she and her mom were incorrectly registered

featherland: At the last one, data was presented that the student had found "a breed specific chocolate gene", but was confused that it wasn't valid for chocolate Persians.

featherland: But it WAS valid for "chocolate Abyssinians".

featherland: LOL... the AUDIENCE informed the student that he had found the cinnamon gene!

PHAbymom: LOL

PHCurious: HA!

featherland: Next.

PHCatByte: OSHCats, your turn

Midask9: ?

ViciousPeaches: evening.

ViciousPeaches: ?

PHAbymom: OshCats??? Your Question please

PHCatByte: OSH, did you have a question?

featherland: Maria, yes you can send samples of the parents and th offspring and the lab can tell if the cat is a tortie point or a chocolate tortie point.

featherland: But at this point, the gene for "red" (orange" has not been found.

PHAbymom: Calicos will not be happy with that

featherland: It was NOT where it is in every other mammal! But then again, the fact that it is sex-linked in the cat and not in other mammals should have been a clue to that.

featherland: So calicos remain a mystery! ;-)

mariafgp_nr: well the dam of my girl is gone

PHAbymom: Lorriane, our Calico Chat usually takes place this hour...

featherland: Send in the samples anyway. Send in samples from every cat in your house . THAT is how we get research done, by giving the lab the material they need.

levanti_nr: ?

featherland: Love them calicos!

PHCatByte: DaKatz, why don't you jump in here now

mariafgp_nr: i know what color the kittens are. just trying to prove the mom is choc tortie pt

DaKatzTonknTurks: My question yoU mean?

PHAbymom: Yes

IndyPurrs: ?

PHCatByte: yep, dakatz!

featherland: But by providing the lab LOTS of samples from closely related cats, you can help future studies as well.

DaKatzTonknTurks: I would just like an opinion

featherland: I have plenty of those... worth every penny they cost ya!

mariafgp_nr: so without having access to her parents is there any way to find out what color she is or will i need to do another test breeding?

DaKatzTonknTurks: We bred a red spotted boy to a brown mc girl to get my tortie who was breed to A CAMEO AND I got a BEAUTFUL Cameo girl

featherland: yes, a single sample will do, but the test is not commercial yet. You have to convince the lab to run the test for you by giving them what THEY need ;-)

mariafgp_nr: ok thanks

DaKatzTonknTurks: Should I look for a cameo outcross boy to lock in the gene or should I go with a silver boy?

featherland: Love cameos! There was a cameo TA at the show yesterday.

mariafgp_nr: i will call them

featherland: Malibu, Southern CA.

DaKatzTonknTurks: My cameo girl is almost 7 months old now

featherland: OK, for the most spectacular cameos, you want to maximize the amount of white undercoat.

DaKatzTonknTurks: Nice high ear set, wonder almond amber eyes and a plume to die for already

featherland: This will also help "diffuse" the stripes for that wonderful pink frosting look of a shaded or shell, as opposed to a cameo tabby.

DaKatzTonknTurks: She is everYthing I hoped for with this breeding

featherland: So to optimize white undercoat, you want to play with the agouti gene and the white undercoat gene, increasing the expression of both genes.

DaKatzTonknTurks: My girl has ver few 'ghost' strips on her

featherland: The easiest way to increase the expression of a dominant gene is by giving the cat a "double dose" of it... one gene from each parent.

featherland: We call this "homozygous", as opposed to "heterozygous", where a cat only has one copy of the gene.

featherland: So breed your cameo to a silver with the most white undercoat as possible.

DaKatzTonknTurks: That's what I thought

featherland: A silver cat has both the agouti (tabby) gene and the white undercoat gene.

featherland: Hopefully, you will create a kitten that is AAII (homozygous for both agouti and white undercoat) and THAT will be a cameo with more white undercoat than its mother.

PHCatByte: Curious, your turn

PHCurious: I want to make a personal comment.

PHCurious: One of my kitties has HCM and has donated blood samples o Dr. Lyons at UC Davis

DaKatzTonknTurks: I need to find a complete outcross which is hard here since most peo-ple start eth a particualr line all the cats in my area are somehow related

PHCurious: I found her very nice, and the process was quick, easy, and free.

PHCurious: If you have an eligible cat, even if you're a pet owner and not a breeder, I strongly encourage you to participate in any genetics study your cat is eligible for

PHCurious: ga

IndyPurrs: ?

OSHCats_nr: ?Cinnamon gene?

featherland: Thanks Curious... excellent point!

featherland: Keep your fingers crossed that they find that gene and that mutation soon. They have ruled out a few genes, and that's a start.

PHCurious: Sure. I'd love for more people to participate. This is important work

IndyPurrs: Sorry new to this but is there a test for checking for a pint gene?

PHCurious: Yes, glad to hear progress is being made

IndyPurrs: point

featherland: Another way for pet people to help is by donating to the Winn Foundation for feline research.

NYC_NYIfan: ?

featherland: ALL collected money goes DIRECTLY to the labs... NONE for salaries or "overhead".

featherland: Yes, therre is a test for the pointed gene.

OSHCats_nr: Yes. Did you say the Cinnamon gene has been identified?

PHCurious: And for those interested in HCM specifically, your donation can be earmarked specifically for HCM research as well :)

featherland: Yes, both the cinnamon and chocolate alleles of the tyrosinase related protein-1 have been sequenced.

featherland: Right now they are validating the pointed/burmese/albinism alleles and cinnamon/chocolate alleles in multiple breeds so that the test can be standardized and turned into a commercial test for the Veterinary Genetics Lab at UC Davis.

OSHCats_nr: So if I have a non cinnamon cat, with one parent known to be a carrier but not themselves Cinnamon can a test prove if they then will or are a carrier?

featherland: An interesting aside... the money that you pay for DNA tests at the VGL goes directly to fund future research!

featherland: Yes, the cinnamon test can identify carriers.

DaKatzTonknTurks: Coolies

OSHCats_nr: How reliable is that test to determine carriers?

featherland: A DNA test is 100% reliable.

featherland: I have to clarify... THIS type of DNA test is 100% reliable.

OSHCats_nr: ?So the DNA test to determine a Cinnamon carrier is 100% reliable?

featherland: It is based on sequencing the exact mutation. Some DNA tests look for "markers" that are NEAR the mutation, but are not the actual mutation.

featherland: Yes, the pointed/burmese/albinism and cinnamon/chocolate, and PKD tests are based on the mutations themselves, not on markers.

anateagbengal: ?

featherland: next.

PHCatByte: midas, you're next, followed by levanti, indypurrs and nyc

Midask9: I am just wondering, being a geneticist....what your take is on feline cloning?

OSHCats_nr: ?So the Cinnamon is a mutation which can be determined. So if I sent a swab to Leslie she could test to verify if the non cinnamon cat carried cinnamon>?

featherland: Yes, OSH.

featherland: Cloning can be extremely valuable.

featherland: We know that two cats with the PKD gene develop the disease at different rates.

NYC_NYIfan: ahhhh

featherland: If we have two "identical twins", we can investigate what it is about one cat that makes it develop a disease differently than its identical twin.

featherland: Cloning is also being used to reproduce endangered species of felines that are too old or unwilling to reproduce naturally.

PHAbymom: Such as environment, diet, nutrition?

featherland: Personally, I find it is of little use to a pet owner or breeder. Breeding is based NOT on reproducing a cat, but by IMPROVING with every generation.

featherland: Exactly Abymom

featherland: And owning a pet is an experience that SHOULD be unique with each member of our fmaily.

featherland: family.

Midask9: ok ty

PHCatByte: levanti, you're next

levanti_nr: Lorraine, is Leslie interested in samples for testing being supplied by breeders from certain programmes (ie chocolate/cinnamon), or do we have to submit them with a certain test in mind for her to do? ie we pay for her to analyse the samples and they then contribute to her research ... just curious as for my new programme, I will be testing to make sure that I don't have "cs" carriers, as pointeds are not my goal, but would only probably test cats I intend to keep, not every kitten from every litter

Animal_Worthy: hello?

featherland: If you want testing done to your needs, wait until the test is commercial and pay for it. If you want FREE testing, send her samples from every cat in your house and help her with her research ;-)

featherland: Help her and she'll help you.

Animal_Worthy: Hi everbody!\

levanti_nr: okay thanks, just wondering, and don't want to be seen as a "penny pincher" but I'm in New Zealand and our dollar is about half the US ... ouch!

levanti_nr: ga

Animal_Worthy: ?

PHCatByte: indypurrs, did you question get answered?

featherland: If I were watching my pennies, it would be worth a few minutes of my time to help her with her research ;-)

IndyPurrs: yes ty

PHCatByte: nyc, then you're up

NYC_NYIfan: Are there any cancer projects going on? I lost two cats to very aggressive forms of cancer. My cat Cathy is the littermate sister of one of them.

levanti_nr: yes, just meaning that I couldn't afford to test all 20 of my cats, plus new programme too! :)

Catfur: ?

featherland: Yes, absolutely. There is a project right now for lymphosarcoma in Oriental breeds.

NYC_NYIfan: But then they wouldn't care about DSHs.

featherland: Samples of the affected cat, parents (if available) and any littermates would be helpful for future studies.

PHAbymom: Lorraine... is there a place pet owners can find out about testing/research programs that are in process?

NYC_NYIfan: (Sherbrooke was an orange tabby - like Morris. Cathy is a Calico).

IndyPurrs: Are there any researches going on for the persian breeds?

featherland: BTW, the branch of the government (YOUR tax dollars... except for levanti!) funding most of this wonderful research is the National Cancer Institute.

featherland: It is hoped that by finding cat genes gone bad, we can find the genes that go bad when cancer occurs too.

featherland: Blindness (retinal atrophy) and severity of PKD are the main Persian studies right now.

Animal_Worthy: ?

IndyPurrs: Ty GA

PHCatByte: anateag? your turn...

DaKatzTonknTurks: To ditect the mutation BEFORe it happens as it were?

featherland: They have a lot of genetic material from Persians, so they need them a little less than other breeds.

NYC_NYIfan: Sherbrooke was euthanized at the Animal Medical Center. I asked at that time that if his physical body (or blood or organ samples) could be sent for research to help othr cats, that it be done).

featherland: Getting resaerch samples to the right place can be difficult. Unfortunately, medical centers don't "bank" DNA as much as we'd like to see.

Kebekat_nr: Can you tell us about the study Leslie is working on with the WSF?

featherland: But you CAN collect the samples yourself with a tiny crush called a "cervical" or "cytology" brush swabbed against the inside of the cheek.

featherland: WSF?

featherland: Have a TLA problem there (three letter acronym)!

Kebekat_nr: White spotting Factor... I breed Ragdolls and have a wide range of '.& white' which are predicable.

featherland: Ahhh, yes. You've read my article on The Pigment Parade, I hope.

Kebekat_nr: Of course!

featherland: They have a candidate gene for white spotting, but haven't found a mutation yet that correlates with white spotting.

featherland: Now we get to a favorite subject of mine: EPIGENETICS.

Kebekat_nr: Bicolor Ragdolls can be either heterozygous for a high level of white we call true bicolor , or homozygous for a lower grade we refer to as high mitted.

featherland: Every time someone says to you, "Polygenetic", they are probably mistaken.

catiators: ?

Kebekat_nr: Lorraine... what do you mean they haven't found a mutation that correlates with white spotting?

featherland: We know that not all alleles of a gene are "created equal", even if they have the IDENTICAL sequence of the four building blocks of DNA: ATGC

featherland: The difference is that some genes get "coated" differently in individuals. This "coating" (methylation is one aspect for any chemists in the crowd), can be caused by diet, environment, or many other things (including chance).

Kebekat_nr: The grades of white in our breed seem to be additive and are very predictable. We do have a few odd cases here and there who don't follow the rule... Is there any indication for an on/off switch for the white?

featherland: The interesting thing about the "coating" is that it can be PASSED ON to the next generation!

featherland: So going back to white spotting. We known that the expression of white spotting is extremely variable.

featherland: But it CAN be predictable in certain lines. Patterns can be eerily similar in family members.

Animal_Worthy: My cat is supposed to have kittens in a few weeks.She is carrying more than her weight and I am afraid there is a problem with her. I also don't know if she'll have enough milk, what should I do?

Kebekat_nr: Variable but predicable. - even as per the amount of white

Animal_Worthy: e-mail me at see_poodles_run@yahoo.com~PLEASE~

featherland: So even when we find the "on/off switch" for white spotting, we probably will find that selective breeding can control the EXPRESSION of that gene in ways that the DNA may not reflect.

Animal_Worthy: please isn't a part of that

featherland: I have been interesting work combining white and white spotting in my own breeding program.

featherland: White spotting tends to drift towards more white with every generation.

Kebekat_nr: 'Mismarks' such as spots on hocks or blazes on the face do seem to run in lines and has been beleived to be passed down even from a colorpoint parent (who doesn't have the white gene expressed,

DaKatzTonknTurks: I think the van pattern is the most striking

featherland: Many colorpoints have undetectable white spotting on the belly and/or groin.

levanti_nr: ?

featherland: Love vans! Especially when the amount of pigment cells is so low that blue or odd eyes result.

PHAbymom: We are running out of time, but if you wish to continue, we certainly can

featherland: I'll be lecturing specifically on the subject of white and white spotting (and eye color) at the CFA Annual in June.

Kebekat_nr: Could the undetectable be due to a very low grade such as a heterozygous form of what causes the Birman gene?

featherland: I'm still on a roll. ;-)

DaKatzTonknTurks: !

PHAbymom: Fine, then we can keep on going :)

featherland: I do not believe there is a gene specific to the Birman breed (ducking from any lurking Birman breeders).

Kebekat_nr: I will make sure the word gets out and we have a lot of Ragdoll breeders at the Annual to listen in!

DaKatzTonknTurks: Here's a gentic WOW for you

featherland: Of course EPIGENTICS can explain unique, familial color expression that is consistent with that breed.

featherland: ga

DaKatzTonknTurks: I once saw an all black cat, not a lick of white on her and she had *5* SOLID white kittens!

PHCatByte: catfur, it's your turn!

Catfur: Featherland, another color question for you.

featherland: That's beating the odds... unless Dadcat was homozygous for white ;-)

Catfur: Do you know anything about the X, or Fox coloration pattern that has recently shown up in European lines of Norwegian Forest Cats?

Kebekat_nr: Although 'I' didn't say it but when Birmans are introduced in Ragdoll breeding programs, we get an intermediate pattern called a mitted bicolor... Two Ragdoll mitted genes produce the high mitted bicolor that is show pattern. the mitted bicolor has color coming down to the wrist. Sorry for disagreeing but I beleive it's the same white gene, just a lower grade of it which makes it act like it may be recessive because the heterozygous form is very very low.

featherland: Hehehe, you mean the subject of my lecture in Sweden in May?

featherland: This is a tough one. Heck, they are flying me over there to present it in person because of its complexity!

Catfur: I didn't know you were lecturing in Sweeden in May.

levanti_nr: sorry to butt in but can you explain "fox pattern"?

featherland: FIFe General Assembly. Check out fifeweb.org

featherland: Levanti, what is happening with the Wegies

featherland: is that a variation of the normal "agouti" pattern is occuring.

PHAbymom: More like ticking in abys that tabby?

featherland: Normally, on a hair in a tabby cat, black pigment gets expressed and deposited into the hair shaft.

PHAbymom: er than

featherland: Then a protein increases in the cells of the pigment producing cells in the ahir follicle.

featherland: hair follicle.

featherland: When the level of the protein reaches a certain point, production of black pigment (eumelanin) switched to production of orange pigment (phaeomelanin).

featherland: This creates a hair that is black at the tip and orange at the base.

featherland: This chemical reaction is REVERSABLE however,

levanti_nr: so completely different to "goldens", actually orange at the base, not yellow?

featherland: and the binding of the protein to its receptor can be broken.

featherland: Yellow = orange for our discussion

featherland: Think abyssinian with its multiple "bands" of alternating black and orange.

featherland: That is the protein holding on and letting go of the receptor, like a key falling out of the lock and being reinserted.

featherland: What appears to be happening in the X colored cats...

featherland: something seen in American Bobtails and Maine Coons as well, BTW, is that the pigment cells are "out-of-sync" and phaemelanin and eumelanin are being expressed AT THE SAME TIME.

featherland: WEIRD looking hairs! They also tend to have hairs that are skinny at the tips,

featherland: a phenomenon seen in Bengals, Russian Blues, and some other breeds, causing a "clear tip" in the hairs.

featherland: Bengals call it "glitter", RB's call it "silver".

featherland: Visit Heather Lorimer's web page for some cool pictures of X colors.

featherland: was that clear as mud?

PHCatByte: yep, thanks!

PHCatByte: catfur, did your question get answered?

PHAbymom: Anateag, you were asking a question when you got punted...

featherland: Goldens, the rest of my lecture in Sweden, are simply brown tabbies with epigenetic and/or polygenetic traits of silvers.

featherland: The agouti band is widened, and phaeomelanin expression is reduced from orange to yellow.

featherland: ga

PHCatByte: anateag, you here?

anateagbengal: ok, these may be repeat questions, and if so i'm sorry: (1) is there a website providing information about currently running studies, what breeds/health conditions are being evaluated, and how to participate?

anateagbengal: (2) what is your opinion on the articles regarding "hypo-allergenic" cats being developed?

anateagbengal: ga

featherland: Yes, Leslie Lyons has an EXCELLENT website at:

featherland: http://faculty.vetmed.ucdavis.edu/faculty/lalyons/Sites/LyonsDenHomepage.htm

featherland: I have a problem with science not being shared.

Deerhounds: I need to leave, but I want to just quickly thank Lorraine for a fabulous educational chat! you're amazing! Goodnight!

featherland: Anything done at the UC Davis lab gets shared (licensed) to the whole feline community.

featherland: The hypoallergenic venture (and the Savings and Clone folks) are commercial companies out to make a buck.

featherland: Lots of science gets done in private industry, don't get me wrong, but this is something that really could benefit ALL cats but I fear it won't ever make its way to the cat fancy as a whole.

anateagbengal: i realize it is a money making venture, but do you see any real value scientifically in trying to create a hypo-allergenic cat? isn't that actually changing the most basic structure of what a cat is?

featherland: OK, remember the whoel "epigenetics" thing? That is basically what th hypoallergenic folks are doing.

featherland: They are not cloning or genetically engineering cats to be without the feline allergen gene, but they are preventing its expression in the cells of the cats.

featherland: Very cool science and with broad applications to feline welfare. After all, a lot of cats go to shelters because they are causing allergies in this immunocompromised human population.

NYC_NYIfan: !

featherland: Your point on cahnging the basic structure of a cat is well taken.

DaKatzTonknTurks: ?

anateagbengal: ty

featherland: We really don't know all the implications of neutralizing this protein in the cat. Would they spray more to try to "mark territory" when they can't smell anything? Would other cats treate them strangely?

featherland: I agree that we should know more about this protein before we remove it from the cat population. ga

PHCatByte: catiators, your turn

catiators: I wondered why some genes seemed to have a cumulative effect, like white spotting.

featherland: Keep in mind that "designer cats" only represent 2% of the cat population. I doubt that would change significantly either with cloned or genetically modified cats

featherland: Some genes are expressed differently when a cat has two copies of the gene than when the cat has only one copy of it.

PHMoxie: I need to leave but wanted to sy Thanks fo much for the great information. We are so glad that you joined us this evening.

featherland: as we learn more and more about molecular genetics, the concepts of "recessive" and "dominant" genes become less black and white.

catiators: perhaps that explains silver?

PHWildCat: Lorraine, thank you so much for joining us this evening. Wonderful information. Thanks so much:):). Night all:):)

featherland: Another phenomenon happening at the molecular level is a form of epigenetics known as "anticipation".

featherland: This is where certain "repeats" within a gene multiply with each generation. When I talked about how white seems to get more extensive with every generation, this may be what is causing it.

catiators: could that also potentially work with spotting? It seems that pattern becomes more and more broken with homzygousity.

featherland: Yes, I think amount of white undercoat in silver may also experience the same phenomenon. We know that the "chinchillas" of today look nothing like those of the turn of the century.

catiators: I'm sorry, not white spotting, but tabby spotting modifier.

featherland: Tabby spotting is something you probably know better than I! Thanks for sharing your observation on that.

featherland: Tabby pattern is a fascinating subject on its own.

featherland: we know that pigment cells "talk" to each other.

featherland: We also know that there are significant levels of pigment expression in the brain, by the way!

featherland: So some of the "old wives' tales" about color and personality MAY actually have some science to back them up!

featherland: ga

PHCatByte: ViciousPeaches, did you have a question?

ViciousPeaches: just a quick quest...sorry I feel alittle ignorant here, could someone tell me why my minx is fond of grapes and peaches? and what is it about minxs that make them have no tails? is that a bred deformaty exploited?

PHAbymom: Manx?

ViciousPeaches: Mynx maybe?

featherland: hmmm, have no idea about the fondness for fruit... interesting!

featherland: But tailessness is a very interesting subject.

ViciousPeaches: he maybe lieks teh testure and perfers it not cold but room temp, he hops like a rabbit when he runs so cute.

featherland: Researchers haven't tried looking for that gene yet, but they probably will fairly soon.

featherland: Some primates have tails. Some do not. No one knows quite why, so finding the gene will be an important quest.

PHAbymom: But Manx, Scottish Folds, and others are genetic mutations

featherland: When you start working with skeletal defect genes, the risks are greater than working with something that APPEARS to be solely cosmetic like color genes.

featherland: But even color genes can have adverse effects.

ViciousPeaches: like changing bone structure in teh face? and hind quarters?

featherland: There is a particular mutation for white spotting that causes a low level of white spotting, but a high perecntage of blue eyes.

featherland: This was attempted to be developed into a breed called the "Ojos Azules". Unfortunately, when the gene is present in homozygous form, severe neurological problems occur.

PHAbymom: ?

featherland: Two years ago, I lectured in Amsterdam and I was asked about FIFe accepting the Scottish Fold, for example. I told them that when it comes to a skeletal gene, they need to be especially careful.

featherland: ga

PHCatByte: levanti, your turn!

ViciousPeaches: oh yeah His eys, Moby is a fairly large male cat with a broad orange back and I want to say tigerlike organge and white strips with BLUE eyes.

featherland: Oooohhh, he sounds VERY beautiful!

levanti_nr: Lorraine, the patterning in bengals, is that due to genes other than tabby, ie do the Asian Leopard Cats bring anything extra to the mix?

ViciousPeaches: yes thanks you for answering my questions haev a good night *S*

featherland: I believe there is significant evidence that they do.

levanti_nr: ie, classic or blotched pattern, with spotting plus ...?

featherland: These may be epigenetic changes to the agouti gene.

featherland: Or the pattern genes.

levanti_nr: so on the same locus as agouti perhaps?

featherland: I think so, but hair structure also plays a part.

featherland: Let me tell you a story here.

levanti_nr: as you explained before with the glitter,I understand that bit

featherland: When The Genome Project first started, everyone assumed we'd find 100,000 mammalian genes.

DaKatzTonknTurks: Got punted WAH! :-(

featherland: As the project progressed, they found that there just weren't taht many genes. In fact SIGNIFICANTLY fewer genes by an order of magnitude!!

featherland: VERY confusing!! How can species differ SO much, but share SO MANY genes??

featherland: A cat shares 97% of its genetic material with ITS OWNER!!

levanti_nr: amazing [img id=em-3]

featherland: Obviously the order of ATGC building blocks is not the whole story... or there would be more genes to show for it. Genes just don't vary all that much. But the EXPRESSION of those genes varies widely!

featherland: This is the part of genetics that has been really taking off in the past ten years.

featherland: ga

levanti_nr: so the rosetting and elongated pattern in the marble are likely to be contributed by the ALC?

levanti_nr: and perhaps not able to be reproduced in other breeds without using a Bengal?

featherland: Probably, but there is a researcher who thinks that the shape of the body contributes to that too.

featherland: Embryology and the arrangement of pigment cells... he has a mathematical model that paints spots on giraffes that I don't have NEAR enough brain to try and wrap around!

levanti_nr: hee hee

levanti_nr: thanks ... ga

featherland: I've seen some Maine Coons with near "marble" patterns... so who knows??

PHCatByte: dakatz, you're up!

DaKatzTonknTurks: What is your opinion of the Muchkins? I know a breeder who breeds healthy cats but what is the potential for problems down the line?

featherland: Any skeletal defect has to be approached with extreme caution. After all, our object should always be to breed healthy cats.

featherland: Having said that, I feel that health is far more of a problem in, for instance, the Scottish Fold, than in the Munchkins... FROM THE DATA I'VE BEEN PRESENTED.

featherland: They aren't my cup of tea... but every association needs to place "the line" where they feels comfortable.

DaKatzTonknTurks: But in Munchies they still allow outcrosses to domestics so have a broader gene pool to pull from

featherland: FIFe will not accept Munchkins or Folds, but they accept Manx. CFA won't accept non-domestic cat hybrids, but they accept Folds...

PHAbymom: You mentioned Ojos Azules and neuological problems. We have a chatter who rescued a small white kitten at about 4 or 5 days old. It's now about 5 or so weeks old and recently had what seemed to be a siezure... It's blue eyed/deaf female.

featherland: It isn't the gene pool I look at with these mutations... it is the potnetial for expression of the gene in homozygotes and the capability of that gene to biochemically cause problems beyond the morphological changes we can see.

DaKatzTonknTurks: PLEASE don't get me going on CFA they JUST reconized Tonks come in *3* patterns

AF_nr: TICA just accepted the Napoleon, so you will soon be seeing short legged Persiam look-a-likes.

featherland: There was a Munchkin breeder in Florida who wanted to create short-legged forms of EVERYTHING.

DaKatzTonknTurks: TICA seems to be accepting everything under the sun and than some

DaKatzTonknTurks: Sorry GA

featherland: Whatever... the cat fancy has always been about experimentation. But use LOGIC! You don't want to COMBINE skeletal defects for example...

featherland: a tailless Fold or a short-legged Manx is just asking for trouble.

levanti_nr: so no Scottish Fold/Manx/Munchkin hybrids then?? [img id=em-2] I should hope not!!

anateagbengal: ?

PHCatByte: abymom?

featherland: TICA is struggling with setting limits and erring on the side of letting breeders drive the process. CFA is the opposite way, erring on the conservative side and letting the association drive the process. BOTH have their limitations.

featherland: Blue eyed white deaf DSH...

AF_nr: To what do you attribute the significant difference in head structure in the homozygous (for curl) Selkirk Rex, as opposed to the less extreme type of a heterozygous?

featherland: I'd be concerned about other neurological problems related to the lack of melanocytes. Pigment is in the brain for a REASON! Poor kitty.

featherland: Cats, however, are able to adapt to a lot of mutations... hopefully this kitten will grow out of its symptoms. Happens!

featherland: OK, who is the Selkirk plant?? ;-)

AF_nr: me - Arnold

PHAbymom: I was wondering if it might just be an abandoned Ojos...

featherland: Nope, the Ojos breeding program never had much of a start, let alone "escaping" into the domestic population.

featherland: Hi Arnold!

AF_nr: It's a question that I have never found an answer to.

featherland: I used to think that the head "thing" in homozygotes was simply an artifact of backcrosses to that ugly "Eve" of our breed, Miss DePesto.

featherland: I HAVE seen some homozygous cats with heads as round as the majority of heterozygotes out there.

featherland: But lately, I've been having a few nagging doubts. People are reporting that the homozygous cats seem not to have the vitality of the heterozygotes.

featherland: There may be problems with them. We need to collect some GOOD, honest data and see if this is really a problem or just anecdotal.

AF_nr: Yes, they are getting "better," but we still get those weird looking ones.

featherland: And possibly something we can control with good breeding practices ga

featherland: Many breeds have standards written for heterozygotes. Tonkinese are the obvious example until recently in CFA ;-)

PHCatByte: i'm next, lorraine: is there any research being done with FeLV? in a sanctuary setting we're seeing negative moms with mixed positive/negative litters--is dad involved?

featherland: But green eyes in Russian Blues and Orientals are also aided by heterozygosity as well.

featherland: That's what the Bengals were intially created for, BTW. To create an FeLV resistant breed of cat!

PHCatByte: i did NOT know that!

featherland: Dad isn't involved, but the immune system of the Mom and her kittens is.

anateagbengal: !

featherland: FeLV is a weird virus. It isn't all that infectious. Many cats cure themselves of it.

PHCatByte: anyplace i could go for more info on what's being done with FeLV?

DaKatzTonknTurks: ?

anateagbengal: the original project at NIH using the ALC was done because it is immune to FELV. It was hoped to use the information to learn about resistance for human Leuk patients.

PHCatByte: yeah, up to 70% of healthy cats, last i heard, can throw it off....

featherland: Immunology is kind of my "day job" and still remains a major interest of mine.

Emme: I have not been chatting however did read your on here what has been discused about color and genetics. Featherland and other speaker thank-you so much for your time!

Emme: sorry tired (typo's) night take care all. BYE

featherland: Dr. Pedersen is still on the case at UC Davis. Do a Medline search on feline retrovirus and you will still get a LOT of hits.

PHCatByte: thanks, lorraine! ga

PHCatByte: sal, you're up now

anateagbengal: there is a researcher at UC San Diego working on a project revolving around a neuro-muscular disorder. he believes it is genetic. while i hope to get more info from him, have you heard anything about this study? As CA has a large bengal population, i'm concerned about what cats (breeds) were involved in this study.

featherland: With AIDS, there is a lot of funding out there for FeLV research. Just as the whole SARS thing has suddenly pumped research dollars into FIP!

PHCatByte: you noticed that, too, huh?

NYC_NYIfan: what is the connection between SARS and FIP? That SARS is a coronavirus?

featherland: I'm not familiar with that. I'd be very interested in what he is working woth.

anateagbengal: I'll send you his information on the list. ty

featherland: We have a genetic neurological disease in Turkish Angoras we are trying to pin down right now.

featherland: Yes, when SARS was discovered to be a coronavirus, Dr. Pedersen's phone started ringing off the hook!

featherland: ga

PHAbymom: I think we've run out of time!

PHCatByte: dakatz? you're the last question--quick!

featherland: I'm starting to slow down here, but I'd like to invite everyone who isn't on the Fanciershealth list already to check us out at:

PHAbymom: Lorraine, you went above and beyond...

featherland: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fanciershealth

PHAbymom: This concludes our discussion for tonight. Thank you all for attending and our sincere appreciation for our guest's contributions. On behalf of Jeff Barringer, PetHobbyist and CatHobbyist, we hope you enjoyed this presentation. Please review our other Chat Week chats, including Richard Avanzino on Creating a No-Kill Nation, planned for Chat Week at http://www.pethobbyist.com/ChatWeek7.html

DaKatzTonknTurks: Just wanted to hear an expanded explination of the Tonk comment

NYC_NYIfan: niters every, thanks for the chat

featherland: Tonks used to be defined as heterozygous for albinism: cbcs.

PHCatByte: thank you SO much, lorraine--you made this fascinating AND intelligible to a non-breeder! (in every sense of the word....)

DaKatzTonknTurks: USED to be?

featherland: But I think the cscs and cbcb cats are beautiful too ;-)

featherland: I was a Tonk breeder in the 1970's ;-)

featherland:

levanti_nr: thank you Lorraine, very interesting and educational!! very much appreciated.

DaKatzTonknTurks: I ran into a genetic liver/kidney probelm with the line I was working with

featherland: Hmmmm... you didn't haoppen to have any "honey" minks, did you?

DaKatzTonknTurks: Lost 2 in 2000 and spayed and neutered everyone

featherland: Tell me more privately at:

featherland: Lorraine@featherland.net

featherland: This has been fun folks! Nite!